How hard was DK DPS hit?

[Saverem]

Looks like both DPS trees got some nerfs, but at least Frost 2h got a decent buff (+12% damage).

UH got tons of nerfs though, how bad is it looking on the PTR? Is it a big nerf or small?

[Shirosaki]

Looks like both DPS trees got some nerfs, but at least Frost 2h got a decent buff (+12% damage).

UH got tons of nerfs though, how bad is it looking on the PTR? Is it a big nerf or small?

Frosts only nerf was to howling blast, which made it broken for AoE encounters. Frost will still have strong aoe dps, but just not absurd.

DW frost is exactly the same, and 2h frost is now reasonably competitive with DW, a viable alternative.

Unholy got a 5% strength nerf, 9% nerf to strikes, and a 20% nerf to dark infustion/transformation. They will be MUCH closer to frost. It's not "bad" at all. The fact was, unholy DK's were outperforming EVERYONE. They were the strongest melee dps class, arguably the strongest dps class period.

When 4.0.6 hits, I expect DW frost, 2h frost, and 2h unholy all to be within a couple percent of each other, with frost perhaps a bit ahead. DW unholy, which is better than 2h unholy at BiS levels right now, will no longer be viable at all, as sudden doom only procs main hand, and now scales in a ppm manner rather than an arbitrary percentage chance. The new unholy mastery will change the way people gear and reforge, but good unholy DK's right now have very little mastery, so it will only a be conversion of stats. The mastery buff isn't going to be some amazing boost to dps, as people are going to have to sacrifice OTHER stats (crit) to be put into it.

[Algroda]

Unholy got a 5% strength nerf, 9% nerf to strikes, and a 20% nerf to dark infustion/transformation. They will be MUCH closer to frost. It's not "bad" at all. The fact was, unholy DK's were outperforming EVERYONE. They were the strongest melee dps class, arguably the strongest dps class period.

Normal modes:
25: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid...s=200&spec=dps
10: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid...s=200&spec=dps

Heroic modes (lot less info, check the same sizes and so forth...take with a grain of salt):
25: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid...s=200&spec=dps
10: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid...s=200&spec=dps

Appears not outperforming everyone, and in 10 mans rogues are beating UH DKs. Blanket statements are not usually a good thing.

[Shirosaki]

Eh, I suppose saying they outperform everyone is a little blanket, but they generally outperform all other melee classes cept for mut rogues sometimes. I still think they're overtuned, and the nerf they're getting is appropriate.

[Algroda]

Eh, I suppose saying they outperform everyone is a little blanket, but they generally outperform all other melee classes cept for mut rogues sometimes. I still think they're overtuned, and the nerf they're getting is appropriate.

It's a bit too much of a nerf really. We're hit pretty hard from what I'm seeing

[luckybeer]

Go to World of Logs and check out the DPS charts for BWD and BOT. Do you see any Unholy Death Knights outperforming everyone? I see only one UH DK across the board in 10/25 N/H.

In 355+ ilvl the gap between dps classes is so narrow. It widens in lesser gear. DK's in 346 will stomp everyone else in 346.

Some nerfs were warranted others were not. Will it change the way we play the game? No. Good DK's will still be good and bad DK's will still use up runes instead of hitting Outbreak.

[kaelleria]

I don't think Unholy Deathknights really got nerfed as badly as people think they will. We're losing quite a lot, but we're also gaining meta gems that actually work and mastery that might actually be a dps increase.

Given the sample size of what's available right now, we really won't know for certain until the patch hits live.

[Deleted]

You underestimate buff what new mastery brings.

[Avatar Killer]

[/COLOR]

I don't think Unholy Deathknights really got nerfed as badly as people think they will. We're losing quite a lot, but we're also gaining meta gems that actually work and mastery that might actually be a dps increase.

Given the sample size of what's available right now, we really won't know for certain until the patch hits live.

actually we can do fair estimations and know pretty much that UH will now be where it should be and so will 2h frost.

---------- Post added 2011-01-31 at 12:45 AM ----------

It's a bit too much of a nerf really. We're hit pretty hard from what I'm seeing

we were hit pretty hard but the new mastery will bring the issue up a bit. the damage is still fairly decent though the pet nerf will bring it lower than it was supposed to be from what ive seen

---------- Post added 2011-01-31 at 12:51 AM ----------

Normal modes:
25: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid...s=200&spec=dps
10: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid...s=200&spec=dps

Heroic modes (lot less info, check the same sizes and so forth...take with a grain of salt):
25: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid...s=200&spec=dps
10: http://stateofdps.com/index.php?raid...s=200&spec=dps

Appears not outperforming everyone, and in 10 mans rogues are beating UH DKs. Blanket statements are not usually a good thing.

no only is this based on only the reported fights and information but it also doesn't perfectly balance gear either so that makes a MUCH larger difference than these numbers actually represent. this is just a basic general average of people that report it. it doesn't show true numbers based on balance at all.

top end based on an entire raid from start to finish I (UH 2h) usually top the chart overall. some fights are different such as Atramedes i do significantly less than warlocks and other ranged classes because of the air factor but just about all other fights i come out on top and i didn't even yet mention that i am half as geared as the rest of my guild that raids. My personal numbers may not weigh as much as the many that DID report their charts but they also didn't put an Ilevel or a gear score next to it did they?

[Nexic]

It says at the the top of the page that the sample is from the top 200 performers (per class) so the gear levels are going to be pretty similar. It's not just throwing random scrubs in the average, it's a pretty good estimate.

[Shirosaki]

Avatar Killer, the gear in those top 200 performers are going to be as balanced as possible for the given class/spec. These are reports from the top guilds around the world, and is the best estimate we have of comparative dps.

If you're pulling higher than everyone else, then you just don't have any survival hunters/destro locks as geared as you, or if you do they just suck.

[Algroda]

no only is this based on only the reported fights and information but it also doesn't perfectly balance gear either so that makes a MUCH larger difference than these numbers actually represent. this is just a basic general average of people that report it. it doesn't show true numbers based on balance at all.

top end based on an entire raid from start to finish I (UH 2h) usually top the chart overall. some fights are different such as Atramedes i do significantly less than warlocks and other ranged classes because of the air factor but just about all other fights i come out on top and i didn't even yet mention that i am half as geared as the rest of my guild that raids. My personal numbers may not weigh as much as the many that DID report their charts but they also didn't put an Ilevel or a gear score next to it did they?

No, it's an average of the top 200 reports of that class per fight, minus the top 5% and bottom 5%. Sure, it's not as accurate as it could be because it doesn't have access to every fight. But it's more accurate than sims for determining how well each class is at each fight - it's hard to model the specific events.

we were hit pretty hard but the new mastery will bring the issue up a bit. the damage is still fairly decent though the pet nerf will bring it lower than it was supposed to be from what ive seen

Most people underestimate the Unholy Might nerf. As well, the mastery buff isn't as huge as most people think. Lets roughly estimate it's now between haste and crit. According to EJ's stat weights, with 359 gear 1 point of haste is .75 dps, 1 point of crit is .62 dps, and 1 point of expertise is .66 dps. Lets go with .726, which is 10% better than expertise is.

The changes I propose to Consider's BIS list are so (note I did not check if I was over / under hit / expertise cap seeing as is this a general guess. However, with only a minus to expertise and the same hit, it should be all good):
Change cloak from 127 crit / haste to exp / mastery. Reforge exp to haste: -77 haste, +127 mastery, +77 exp, -127 crit
Chest: Change reforge from expertise to mastery: -91 exp, +91 mastery
change feet to 149 exp / 169 mastery from 149 haste / 169 crit. Reforge exp to haste. Old boots had crit to exp: -90 haste, +169 mastery, +23 exp, -102 crit
Ring 1: undo mastery to crit reforge: -50 crit, +50 mastery
Ring 2: change from 127 haste / exp ring to 127 haste / mastery: +127 mastery, -127 exp
Hands: Undo mastery to exp reforge: -59 exp, +59 mastery
Head: Reforge exp to mastery: +67 mastery, -67 exp
Legs: change crit reforge to mastery: -75 crit, +75 mastery
Neck: Change from 127 crit / haste to 127 haste / mastery: +127 mastery, -127 crit
Shoulders: leave as is
Belt: leave as is
wrists: as is
totals:
haste: -167
mastery: 892
expertise: -244
crit: -481
.75(-167)*.762(892)+.66(244)+.62(481) = 63.082
Yes, we gain a grand total of 63 dps off the mastery buff, assuming mastery being 10% better than expertise

(Secret for you...but don't tell anyone. With 3407 str unbuffed and a weight of 3.09 that's 10527.63 dps. Losing 4.545454...% of the weight, the 3.09 goes to ~2.95. That's 10050.65 - 10527.63 = -476.98 dps. With the 63.082 added in that's -413.898 dps loss. Note that this assumes str stays at its current weight. It will not because of the ghoul nerf)

However, it becomes more complicated once you factor in the buff to SS, the buff to DC, the nerf to the ghoul, and so forth. WTB Kahorie's sim working properly for 4.0.6

[Kronik85]

Surely using stateofdps atm is moot anyway, 4.06 has changes for all specs. It is important to know how much DPS we are losing next patch, but it's meaningless unless we know how much the other raiding specs have lost or gained. UH could take a nerf if Survival Hunters and Warlocks (Affliction and Demonology) are nerfed on a similar scale, by the looks of the notes they are at least suffering some nerfs, whether it's to the same degree I couldn't comment.

Any idea how badly the nerfs/fixes will affect DW Frost Algroda? BS losing 8% weapon damage, and FS losing 11% weapon damage, people on the PTR are saying its a loss of 10% or more DPS, but I'm finding that very hard to believe, I would be inifinitely grateful for some decent math on the subject as I lack the appropriate skills.

[Penatar]

honestly I hope unholy got hit hard. I feel bad doing 11-15k in greens and blue tank gear.

[Algroda]

Surely using stateofdps atm is moot anyway, 4.06 has changes for all specs. It is important to know how much DPS we are losing next patch, but it's meaningless unless we know how much the other raiding specs have lost or gained. UH could take a nerf if Survival Hunters and Warlocks (Affliction and Demonology) are nerfed on a similar scale, by the looks of the notes they are at least suffering some nerfs, whether it's to the same degree I couldn't comment.

Stateofdps was mainly linked because someone said we were beating everyone, which we are not.

Any idea how badly the nerfs/fixes will affect DW Frost Algroda? BS losing 8% weapon damage, and FS losing 11% weapon damage, people on the PTR are saying its a loss of 10% or more DPS, but I'm finding that very hard to believe, I would be inifinitely grateful for some decent math on the subject as I lack the appropriate skills.

Blood Strike and Frost strike are being nerfed...? It's not in the patch notes if it is there

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2011384#blog

The only thing in there I'm seeing for DW frost is a slight buff in Runic Focus

---------- Post added 2011-01-31 at 03:57 PM ----------

honestly I hope unholy got hit hard. I feel bad doing 11-15k in greens and blue tank gear.

For some reason I find it hard to believe you're doing 11-15k raid dps. That's like saying "I hope survival gets hit hard because my hunter in greens who can only queue for heroics because I have BoA arch epics in his bags (321 ilevel) does 11-12k in heroics"

Link your armory or char name please, or a screen shot

[Huckfealing]

Nerfs: 5% Strength lost from Unholy Might

10% Death coil nerf

2% damage Nerf to each stack of Dark Transformation

20% damage Nerf to Final Dark Transformation

9% Strike damage Nerf to SS, FS, PS

Buffs:
Dreadblade 20% more shadow damage passive, with scaling percentages based on mastery. (Easily fixes Death coil Nerf, and buffs scourge strike shadow damage, and making DND a even bigger part of our rotation)

Scourge Strike (Shadow) 6% buff (This combined with Dread blade will make shadow portion hit even harder than live currently.

New meta: 54 str and 3% increased crit strike damage.

Runic Corruption : now when multiple death coils are used, there will be no more overwriting buffs, they will stack.

All things considered The "Nerfs" as so many people call them, are noticable, and some would argue that they are a bit to powerful of nerfs. I also believe they are a bit over the top, But looking at it from a total view point, the nerf will not be the end of the world (some say it will be at MOST a 5% total nerf). And, We will be doing more damage on some boss fights due to death coil ranging, and are pet will still be very powerful. Dont fall into the ITS THE END OF THE WORLD, Unholy will still be highest dps by far. For Death Knight specs at least.

--------------------

Individual buffs: Synapse Springs (Engineering) 480 str for 12 sec every 1 min. Equals out to about 98 str the ENTIRE time on a average 6 min fight.

[Kronik85]

Blood Strike and Frost strike are being nerfed...? It's not in the patch notes if it is there

The only thing in there I'm seeing for DW frost is a slight buff in Runic Focus

You are right, it's not in the patch notes, it could even be a tool tip correction but everyone is reporting DPS losses on the PTR as Frost. On live FS hits for 121% weapon damage, and BS for 88% weapon damage, on PTR its 110% for FS, and 80% for BS. I only found out this morning from the QQ on the european DK forums, people claiming they have lost between 10-20% damage which with my limited math skills seems exaggerated to say the least. FS on live accounts for around 35% of my damage, and BS 3%, so even if they both suffered a flat 10% nerf, that would only be a drop of 5% on my total DPS right?

So lets propose that indeed we have lost damage on FS and BS, whats the total effect?

[Penatar]

For some reason I find it hard to believe you're doing 11-15k raid dps. That's like saying "I hope survival gets hit hard because my hunter in greens who can only queue for heroics because I have BoA arch epics in his bags (321 ilevel) does 11-12k in heroics"

Link your armory or char name please, or a screen shot

Well, yes it woudl be hard to believe I was doing that in raid. You think someone in greens and blues would be allowed in a serious raid?
And I don't have a screenshot, but I did 12k on vanessa vancleef. I'm not good at unholy, literally what I do is blow my cds, the speed one, and gargoyle, and then just spam the attack that only uses one rune and then fil with deathcoil, and use the 2 rune one to keep my diseases up if i remember. I'm really bad at unholy, very rarely use it, only if a dps is needed for a guild heroic. Otherwise I'm a tank. I have always hated being a melee dps. I only tank, heal and range on my toons.

[Algroda]

Nerfs: 5% Strength lost from Unholy Might

10% Death coil nerf

Is actually an 8% buff to the damage of DC ((damage*.9)*1.2), but reduced str scaling and gains scaling from mastery.

Or is it?

According to wowhead: Fire a blast of unholy energy, causing (985 + 0.3 * AP * 1) Shadow damage to an enemy target or healing ((985 + 0.3 * AP * 1) * 3.5) damage on a friendly Undead target.
So 30% AP scaling.
Modifiers on Death Coil: Morbidity: 15%, DC Glyph: 15%, 8% Magic increase. Total % increase: 42.83.
1.428*.3 = 0.42849
1 str = 2 AP. 1 str * 1.05 (MotW) * 1.1 (Unholy Might) = 1.155 str = 2.31 AP * 1.1 (Might) = 2.541 AP.

So 1 str = 2.541*.4283 = 1.0883103 DC damage.

With the patch:
Modifiers on Death Coil: Morbidity: 15%, DC Glyph: 15%, Dreadblade: 20%, 8% Magic increase. Total % increase: 1.71396
Decreased by 10%: 10% off the base, and off the AP scaling. The 985 base damage means you lose 98.5 damage on the DC. As well, takes it from 30% AP to 27% AP
.27*1.71396 = 0.4627692
1 str = 2 AP. 1 str * 1.05 (MotW) * 1.1 (Unholy Might) = 1.1025 str = 2.205 AP * 1.1 (Might) = 2.4255 AP.

So 1 str = 2.4255*0.514188 = 1.1224466946

Still ~3.137% increase in str scaling, and gains better scaling as you gain more mastery. As long as you have CEILING(98.5/1.122...) = a whole 88 str your Death Coil got buffed. With 0 mastery on gear.

2% damage Nerf to each stack of Dark Transformation

20% damage Nerf to Final Dark Transformation

Honestly, it was needed. They should have done it a bit more so, and gave the player more buffs. The ghoul ignores too many fight mechanics, and is mindless dps. It was ~66% player, 33% pet. IMO it should be ~15-20% pet and ~85-80% player dps.

9% Strike damage Nerf to SS, FS, PS

One, you have your number off for the nerf. It's a 9% off the multiplier, yes. But it's only a 1-(1.36/1.45) = 6.2% damage nerf.

The "nerf" to scourge strike ends up being a buff.
SS does wep damage+small amount, and a shadow amount based off your current # diseases. We'll ignore the ~600-700 extra it deals, but it ends up working in favor of the PTR

LIVE:
Physical: (Wep damage)*1.45 (RoR) = 1.45
Shadow: Physical*(0-3*.12)*(1+.45 (RoR)+.3 (Glyph))*1.08 (if they ever fix the odd parts with ebon plague, earth and moon, CoE, and MP) = Physical*0.6804
Total: 1.45+1.45*.6804 = 2.43658

PTR:
Physical: (Wep damage)*1.36 (RoR) = 1.36
Shadow: Physical*(0-3*.18)*(1+.36 (RoR)+.3 (Glyph))*1.2(Dreadblade)*1.08 (if they ever fix the odd parts with ebon plague, earth and moon, CoE, and MP) = Physical*1.1617344
Total: 1.36+1.36*1.1617344 = 2.939958784
So increased scaling off str, and also mastery scaling
~20.66% better scaling in fact for str. And add in the mastery not being useless and its even better, though you also have to remember that for every point of mastery you get, you do not get a point of crit or expertise.

Buffs:
Dreadblade 20% more shadow damage passive, with scaling percentages based on mastery. (Easily fixes Death coil Nerf, and buffs scourge strike shadow damage, and making DND a even bigger part of our rotation)

Scourge Strike (Shadow) 6% buff (This combined with Dread blade will make shadow portion hit even harder than live currently.

See above for supporting math. See what I mean by it's complicated to see exactly how much of a dps gain or loss this patch is?

---------- Post added 2011-01-31 at 04:59 PM ----------

You are right, it's not in the patch notes, it could even be a tool tip correction but everyone is reporting DPS losses on the PTR as Frost. On live FS hits for 121% weapon damage, and BS for 88% weapon damage, on PTR its 110% for FS, and 80% for BS. I only found out this morning from the QQ on the european DK forums, people claiming they have lost between 10-20% damage which with my limited math skills seems exaggerated to say the least. FS on live accounts for around 35% of my damage, and BS 3%, so even if they both suffered a flat 10% nerf, that would only be a drop of 5% on my total DPS right?

So lets propose that indeed we have lost damage on FS and BS, whats the total effect?

I don't play frost too much, so I'll use your numbers for the % of your damage done.

1.1/1.21 = 0.909...
.8/.88 = 0.909...
So:
.35-.35*.909... = .35-0.3181818... = 0.03181...
.03*.909... = .03-0.027272... = .00272...

Added together: 3.4545...% loss

[Shirosaki]

stuff

Hmm, it seems like people on PTR seem to want to exaggerate the changes.

To be honest though, the changes to Frost Strike were eventually going to be needed. Frost mastery is going to cause frost strike to scale more quickly than Obliterate, to the point where I could see it feasible at the end of this content for FS damage to be exceeding OB. And I don't think blizzard wants that.

As for unholy, I stand by what I've said. Unholy is getting nerfed somewhat, and it will be within a couple percent of frost now, likely just below, but possibly still just above.