Hit more valuable after patch? [Ferals]

[Arielle]

did i miss somewhere a post about haste beign buffed or something? or do eveyrbody talking about haste beign more valuable in 4.06 because of bleed nerfs and more direct dmg?

Haste has always been #3 behind Mastery and Crit. At some level of Crit it will become #2 behind Mastery. That level depends on your gear.

[utopianh]

Basically on live you need enough haste to maintain your full rotation before it drops below crit in value, until you can get enough crit for CP generation to make up for the haste (from agi on gear mostly) and drops off quickly after you can make the rotation and burn off excess energy in the rotation with FB. If you lose uptime on bleeds due to lack of energy at any point in a fight, haste was a better option than crit. However once you reach raiding gear levels of agi, your crit will be high enough that you can maintain a full rotation, at which point crit affects 100% of your damage, so it ends up being your second strongest secondary stat after mastery and haste falls down relatively close to hit and expertise.

After the patch, crit won't be changing, but it's no longer entirely centric around bleed damage, which should drop to less than 45% of our dps, with shred picking up a large chunk of the damage. This means that CP gen versus spending haste on extra shreds ends up coming out in favour of haste for maintaining the bleed uptime; since haste still doesn't effect the bleed portion of the damage, post maintaining your full rotation, haste does fall, but the question right now is where crit and haste fall relative to one another and which one comes out on top will depend on too many factors to say for certain. However they both maintain a large lead over hit and expertise; neither of which will ever be valuable for feral dps unless they significantly increase our white damage.

[Shifthappens]

Haste has always been #3 behind Mastery and Crit. At some level of Crit it will become #2 behind Mastery. That level depends on your gear.

Yeah i know, but how is it going to become better in 4.06? just because of slight bleed nerf and direct dmg buff?

[Arielle]

Yeah i know, but how is it going to become better in 4.06? just because of slight bleed nerf and direct dmg buff?

Yep. goddamn10chars

[Shornaal]

Hit and Expertise are well below haste except in very specific gearing circumstances on live; they will remain well behind crit and haste in value.

Ok, so i'm in one of those "very specific gearing circumstances"... putting my char on Mew and checking relative stat values i get:

Weapon DPS: 3.403
Agi: 2.621
Str: 2.005
Mastery: 1.049
AP: 0.954
Crit: 0.834
Hit: 0.745
Exp: 0.744
Haste: 0.695

[Stickers90]

Basically on live you need enough haste to maintain your full rotation before it drops below crit in value, until you can get enough crit for CP generation to make up for the haste (from agi on gear mostly) and drops off quickly after you can make the rotation and burn off excess energy in the rotation with FB. If you lose uptime on bleeds due to lack of energy at any point in a fight, haste was a better option than crit. However once you reach raiding gear levels of agi, your crit will be high enough that you can maintain a full rotation, at which point crit affects 100% of your damage, so it ends up being your second strongest secondary stat after mastery and haste falls down relatively close to hit and expertise.

After the patch, crit won't be changing, but it's no longer entirely centric around bleed damage, which should drop to less than 45% of our dps, with shred picking up a large chunk of the damage. This means that CP gen versus spending haste on extra shreds ends up coming out in favour of haste for maintaining the bleed uptime; since haste still doesn't effect the bleed portion of the damage, post maintaining your full rotation, haste does fall, but the question right now is where crit and haste fall relative to one another and which one comes out on top will depend on too many factors to say for certain. However they both maintain a large lead over hit and expertise; neither of which will ever be valuable for feral dps unless they significantly increase our white damage.

Untill what % of haste/crit does haste outweigh crit? Because i always believed crit>haste on live.

[Ohforfsake]

Nothing will change about stats value after the patch, only that haste will become slightly better, and might catch up with crit. That is assuming 100% uptime of course.. In any case of targets switching or uptime break, crit will pull ahead considerably, since your dots that you've left ticking will be benefitting from crit while haste walue will be rotting useless, contributing nothing to dps..

So it is agi>str>mastery>crit>haste >> hit/expertise.

Hit and expertise have exactly the same value. Expertise isnt double-dipped because it mitigates 2 avoidance matters, check out how combat table works.

On alakir your dps might suffer but it still does not make hit/exp any better, or make exp better than hit. Remember, youd have to sacrifice the stats that buff bleeds to get more expertise, and bleeds become even more valued in a kologarn-style fight.

Ok, so i'm in one of those "very specific gearing circumstances"... putting my char on Mew and checking relative stat values i get:

You have set up Mew wrong. Haste can not be THAT low. And other stats values are pretty low too. Make sure you checked all the boxes there and all the talents and stuff. The only way it might fall below hit/exp if you stack it absurdly, like 3000-4000 haste rating, in which case you gear wrong. I cant even imagine if it's possible with current gear.. I have about 780 haste only and i wear full epic gear available - there is not much choice.. And even if i would wear the prestor's talisman with haste proc, it'd still be a far shot from this breaking point.

---------- Post added 2011-02-01 at 11:21 AM ----------

I do agree though.. Some times you have to sacrifice mathematical DPS for make up for human factor and rng.. To make the rotation less chaotic.. Having like 0 hit and 0 expertise would make the combat extremely annoying, with a lot of hickups, like energy capping during berserk due to string of avoidance or failing to apply dots while TF is active, or failing to dump combo points into rip before you have to leave the target and go chase after adds or run for whatever crap melee has to deal with.. In which case having a healthy amount of hit/exp over other stats would mathematically be a dps loss, but in real combat would become a considerable gain.. I myself usually keep it around 4-6% for hit and 2-3% for expertise

PS: interrupts just like taunts can no loner miss the spell interrupt portion. Extra abilities attached to interrupt can miss, the spell interrupt thing can not. I was running with 1% hit for a while and had quite an intensive job on interupts in one raid, and i never-ever failed to prevent the spell from casting. Bear in mind though, skull bash has a nasty behavior of lagging a split second on interrupt, it isnt as responsive as other interrupts, make sure to watch the cast bar like a hawk and interrupt asap. And better use other clas to do it, they dont suffer as much DPS penalty as we do. Not to mention FB execute portion and ridiculous 25 energy cost of skull bash makes it even worse.

[Shornaal]

You have set up Mew wrong. Haste can not be THAT low. And other stats values are pretty low too. Make sure you checked all the boxes there and all the talents and stuff. The only way it might fall below hit/exp if you stack it absurdly, like 3000-4000 haste rating, in which case you gear wrong. I cant even imagine if it's possible with current gear.. I have about 780 haste only and i wear full epic gear available - there is not much choice.. And even if i would wear the prestor's talisman with haste proc, it'd still be a far shot from this breaking point.

Well, armory in sig, i'm using those values (629 haste, 1707 crit, 2633 mastery, 199 hit). I checked both trinkets i have, put all the talents (that means checked everything except primal madness), food, flask, potion, glyphs. In buffs/debuffs i've put what i usually have in our 10m, so no 3% damage, no 4% phisical damage taken and no shattering throw. Also i did not check unholy frenzy, dark intent or tricks as i can't count on them everytime. Model parameters were left as default, using 10k iterations in the simulator model. EDIT: using Toskk haste gets over hit and exp.

[mlc]

I'v actually seen reports that our interrupts may not even effected by hit. This is somewhat hard to show conclusively due to the fact that it does not fire an interrupt event in the combat log, the cast just stops with no message at all. However I've seen log snippets for interrupting arcanotron where skullbash clearly missed, no other interrupts were cast, no spell went off and the boss started casting again 5s later. The therory is that the debuff part that increases mana cost can miss/dodge/parry but the interupt seems to happen regardless. That is probably a bug though and could be fixed if and when they let it fire an interrupt message.
Admittedly this argues even less for hit although I do find sticker's comment strange arguing hit is worth more than expertise from behind.

I'd like to see some data that proves that the interrupt part of skull bash is not affected by our hit % because I have had experience of missing an interrupt as a bear (and I know it's not due to latency or reaction. I'm running the game at around 100 ms and I hit the interrupt button at the beginning of the cast and I also see a "miss" message pop up in the game world). It might be different for cat's skull bash though.

[utopianh]

I'd like to see some data that proves that the interrupt part of skull bash is not affected by our hit % because I have had experience of missing an interrupt as a bear (and I know it's not due to latency or reaction. I'm running the game at around 100 ms and I hit the interrupt button at the beginning of the cast and I also see a "miss" message pop up in the game world). It might be different for cat's skull bash though.

It was bugged, and hotfixed; people need to read patch notes.

[coocoo]

You mean this one?
"Skull Bash no longer interrupts the target if it fails to land successfully."

[mlc]

You mean this one?
"Skull Bash no longer interrupts the target if it fails to land successfully."

Yea I just checked and this one was a hotfix on Jan 5 2011.

[coocoo]

As a side note, I did get 2 genuine bear Skull Bash misses during tonight's raid, which obviously failed to interrupt the casts I was trying to interrupt, and that's with 3.83% hit even ;p
(for the record, both misses were on Hydro Lances on Ascension Council)

[blahssat]

Wait, haste affects energy regen? Proof?

[Netherwolf]

http://www.wowpedia.org/Haste_rating
Under Cataclysm:

"In World of Warcraft: Cataclysm, haste will also increase the rate at which you gain energy, runes, and focus. Retribution paladins and Enhancement shaman will have a talent that allows them to take advantage of this benefit."

[kliffharry]

More haste means more shreds

[Elunedra]

i remember mihir calcualted that crit / haste / mastery will all end up close in value just avobe hit & exp.

but since hit & exp make our rotation a lot easyer i personaly thing that gonig for those might be better as i do seem to loose like 6 ticks or rip / rake per boss fight becase i miss and such

---------- Post added 2011-02-03 at 10:26 AM ----------

More haste means more shreds

more shreds mean more fun

[Arielle]

i remember mihir calcualted that crit / haste / mastery will all end up close in value just avobe hit & exp.

but since hit & exp make our rotation a lot easyer i personaly thing that gonig for those might be better as i do seem to loose like 6 ticks or rip / rake per boss fight becase i miss and such

---------- Post added 2011-02-03 at 10:26 AM ----------

more shreds mean more fun

No offense, but I'm more inclined to believe Yawning (and subsequently Mew).

Mastery will still be first. Haste/Crit will follow depending on the gear you have.

[utopianh]

i remember mihir calcualted that crit / haste / mastery will all end up close in value just avobe hit & exp.

but since hit & exp make our rotation a lot easyer i personaly thing that gonig for those might be better as i do seem to loose like 6 ticks or rip / rake per boss fight becase i miss and such

---------- Post added 2011-02-03 at 10:26 AM ----------

more shreds mean more fun

There's no way you're going to miss 6 ticks on a bleed with only a 13% miss rate at maximum (running 0/0); it's just not realistic at all. Hit doesn't make the rotation that much easier since we run on a priority system not a hard GCD locked rotation. And now that we can't clip bleeds, you have a 3 second window on rake and 2 second window on rip to refresh.

The fact will remain that hit/expertise in all conditions will be a dps downgrade; they're that significantly below.