Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    i dont know because i dont live in europe, i live in brazil but i always dream to live in the europe

  2. #22
    A lot of people on this thread have a very skewed opinion on what democracy is. Yes, the bigger countries get a bigger say in how the EU is run. They have more people do they get more votes. That IS democracy. The people of Irelands votes should not count for 10x the votes of the German people just so the two countries come out equal. That's madness.
    The current political party here was not voted in by myself, and so it's decisions are not necessarily in my interest. That does NOT stop it being democratic. I had my vote and now I lice with the consequences of being in the minority when it cane to that vote. People on here seem to think, well I didn't vote for it so it's not democracy.

    And yes, the Irish Bailout came with conditions. Those conditions were on how the country spends and repays the money. Have you ever gotten a bank loan? If so, do you believe the bank now "run" your life? The paranoid fantasy that the IMF now dictates all matters in Irish Life is fradulent and one the country sees enough of as it is.

    If you can give me one country, just one, which has suffered because of inclusion in the EU... then I will accept that maybe the cons might be approaching the pro's.

    I have big problems with Europe. But as an instituition it is a wondrous thing and something the world could not have imagined a 100 years ago. It is not perfect but it tries and succeeds on a greater scale than any other.

  3. #23
    Maybe describing it as not democratic was not the best description. But still, I really believe that the majority of people don't want their lives ran by the EU. They want the government that THEY and only they elect to run their country and make the laws. They don't want a huge supergovernment raining down laws on them. I myself don't want our government to have to bow down to EU rulings that it doesn't agree with. It just doesn't feel "right". That's why I said it was undemocratic, because the government that the majority of the UK elect has to admit defeat because of a ruling from "somewhere in Brussels".

    If the EU gets more political power it dilutes the influence that the individual in a country has on things that happen in their own country. While it would make us more "united", I don't think many British citizens really care about how Romania is run, they care about how Britain is run.

    I don't know if I'm getting the point across, but the main point is that I think small government is just better in so many ways rather than having every country being ran by the EU. People want to run their country, not the whole of Europe. No matter what, people will always seperate themselves into groups. British people want to run Britain, Spanish people want to run Spain, etc.

    Like i said though, the EU has been great for Europe's economy, I just don't want it to become more politically powerful.

  4. #24
    The EU is going to soon essentially create The United States of Europe.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    Well, that's quite a list. Let's start from on top, shall we?

    Laws & Regulations. Thats prejudice. Yeah, there are many laws and regulations. Many of them may be worthless shit. But a good amount of them enrichened our lives. Cell Phone costs have been cut through that. We have unified standards in education so a pupil from Italy could actually study in Germany and so on. The problem is...the local governments take those achievements for themselves. While they spoil the EU for everything unpopular.
    Regulations on free market in itself is a destruction of wealth and usually leads to worse conditions for consumers. But every government come up with these nutjob regulations, however:
    - EU Laws & regulations apply in all member states. This is pure lunacy, as all countries are SO different. It's more idiotic than applying all US state laws nation wide.


    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    Euro: It ain't fiat money. It's a strong currency actually. People saying "everything got more expensive with the euro!" compare the prices back in 2000 with the prices today. And forget to include the inflation. I remember cigarettes would cost 5 DM in 1992. In 1999 it was like 7 DM. That's a perfectly normal process. No, the Euro will not fall. It can't tbh...
    This shows your complete ignorance of economics.
    -The euro is only backed by the trust in it. It isn't backed by gold or any other commodity. This means ECB can create as many euros it wants. This is also the definition of Fiat.
    -Inflation is the result of expanding the monetary base ("printing" more euros). It's basicly the same as saying the Euro has become weaker.
    -The Euro will fall. It must.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    Bailouts: So you think it's a _bad_ thing if bigger countries like Germany or France help out Ireland or Greece? That's some weird logic. Ireland is not a puppet state. Never will be. They still have their votes, don't they? Stop talking BS.
    Do you even know what they bailed out? I'm not going to delve into the specifics as you would probably not understand a word, but the bailout basicly was done to cover the losses of Irish Banks. They gambled, they lost, they shifted the losses to the taxpayers. Not only is it not fair, but it's a HUGE moral hazard.
    The European Commissioner for Economic and Financial Affairs, Olli Rehn (not elected) told Ireland they could not hold a general election "before their finances were sorted out". Reading between the lines, what they did was to ensure that the Irish could not elect anyone to stop the bailout, a bailout the Irish did not want. This bailout stopped the default of Ireland, which would've shown how unstable the EU really is. Now Ireland just has to pay interest ad infinitum and comply with whatever the eu leadership tells them to do.

    I wish EU would break down sooner rather than later, and of economic reasons rather than internal violence.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2011-02-02 at 08:41 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Regulations on free market in itself is a destruction of wealth and usually leads to worse conditions for consumers. But every government come up with these nutjob regulations, however:
    - EU Laws & regulations apply in all member states. This is pure lunacy, as all countries are SO different. It's more idiotic than applying all US state laws nation wide.
    Yeah, sure. German laws apply to the swedish people. Oh, I forgot...it doesn't. Also in the USA there is federal law and state law. This is exactly what we have here EU (federal) and country (state) laws. Stop talking bullshit, thank you.



    This shows your complete ignorance of economics.
    -The euro is only backed by the trust in it. It isn't backed by gold or any other commodity. This means ECB can create as many euros it wants. This is also the definition of Fiat.
    -Inflation is the result of expanding the monetary base ("printing" more euros). It's basicly the same as saying the Euro has become weaker.
    -The Euro will fall. It must.
    You're talking such a huge bullshit. The Euro is backed by the huge economic apparate behind it. Do you really think the USA has as much gold reserves as derrivates? That's ridiculous. It's not even 1:100000. Therefore the Dollar is a fiat currency too, right?

    Inflation is an indicator of how good an economy works. The Dollar is also inflationous. That doesn't mean the FED prints as much money as it wants to. It's regulated. Just like in the EU. Another piece of crap by you. Inflation is nothing to be scared about as it is a regulator to the state debts. Therefore we NEED inflation to some degree.

    And again...it can't fall. If you had even the slightest glimpse of knowlege in that matter, you'd know that.


    Do you even know what they bailed out? I'm not going to delve into the specifics as you would probably not understand a word, but the bailout basicly was done to cover the losses of Irish Banks. They gambled, they lost, they shifted the losses to the taxpayers. Not only is it not fair, but it's a HUGE moral hazard.
    The European Commissioner for Economic and Financial Affairs, Olli Rehn (not elected) told Ireland they could not hold a general election "before their finances were sorted out". Reading between the lines, what they did was to ensure that the Irish could not elect anyone to stop the bailout, a bailout the Irish did not want. This bailout stopped the default of Ireland, which would've shown how unstable the EU really is. Now Ireland just has to pay interest ad infinitum and comply with whatever the eu leadership tells them to do.

    I wish EU would break down sooner rather than later, and of economic reasons rather than internal violence.
    Oh well, enlighten me. Give me a crash course in "european economics" and tell me what we had to bail out. Besides that..I already posted hours before why we had to do that. This just shows you didnt even read the posts. You just picked a few things out.

    And you know...your conspiracy theories would be better off in "Zeitgeist" or such a boulevard crap.
    Last edited by Niridia; 2011-02-02 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #27
    EU is a good idea, but the true power must shift to the UN sooner or later. The EU is too local. We need a global gouvernement, and we need it quickly, or we'll boil the planet into another venus.
    Ecce homo ergo elk

  8. #28
    Herald of the Titans kailtas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    2,959
    If Norway becomes a part of the EU, i will move to Iceland.
    Your greed, your foolishness has brought you to this end.

    - Prince Malchezaar

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    Yeah, sure. German laws apply to the swedish people. Oh, I forgot...it doesn't.
    D'uh no shit, I was merely saying that the laws that imposed do not suit all countries, some countries even refuse to follow them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    You're talking such a huge bullshit. The Euro is backed by the huge economic apparate behind it. Do you really think the USA has as much gold reserves as derrivates? That's ridiculous. It's not even 1:100000. Therefore the Dollar is a fiat currency too, right?
    Dude, google "fiat currency". You're totally clueless when it comes to economics. The dollar is a fiat currency too. Any economist will say this. The euro is backed by trust, nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    Inflation is an indicator of how good an economy works.
    Im not sure what crackpot economics you have learned, you certainly do not know what "fiat" or "Inflation" means.
    Inflation can either mean expansion of monetary base or general rise in prices. Expansion of monetary base leads to rise in prices so which you want to follow is not so relevant here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    The Dollar is also inflationous. That doesn't mean the FED prints as much money as it wants to. It's regulated.
    Yes the dollar is also "inflationous" (wut). However, the Fed can print as much money as it wants, and it is NOT regulated anywhere.

    This chart shows how the Fed has printed money in recent years, uncontrollably.


    Shows how well the value of dollar has fared throughout years.

    Whenever Congress tries to ask about where this money the Fed printed goes, they respond that they cannot tell you, because the "federal reserve is autonomous" and its integrity cannot be compromised. So basicly it can do what it wants with the money and does not have to tell anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    Inflation is nothing to be scared about as it is a regulator to the state debts. Therefore we NEED inflation to some degree.
    Inflation is not good. Inflation is another form of Taxation. It lowers the value of your savings, because the more euros there are, the less is the value of the individual euro. The "new euros" usually appear first in government spending. Because when governments spend more than they earn, they have to borrow money from banks to make up for the deficit. The money borrowed is created out of thin air.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post
    Oh well, enlighten me. Give me a crash course in "european economics" and tell me what we had to bail out.
    We didn't have to bailout anyone. By bailing out, we take capital (euros) from upcoming profitable companies that create jobs and wealth, and channel it into bad companies that is only a burden on the economy. The whole economy works by having bad business-ideas go into bankrupcy while good ones make profit.

    Also how is it fair to let the normal worker pay for mistakes that a banker has made? It isn't, that's why you let the banker pay for his mistakes.
    Iceland let the bankers pay, and they are going in a very promising direction right now.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    I seriously hope EU would fall to bits.
    - The Euro currency. It's doomed to fail because 1) its fiat 2) the countries of EU are too different
    - The vision and future of EU. It's starting to feel like the new soviet union or some kind of fascist equivalent, with its 5 year plans, it's goal to become one country disregarding the wishes of the people.
    This. Governments cannot assuage the feelings of a panicky public. Just ask Napoleon, Caesar, or Mubarak. The people in power pretty much everywhere, have this notion that they are able to bend the laws of human needs. The euro is as propped up as the Yuan, and is doomed to fail. Creating money out of thin air, and claiming it has value is a charade that only lasts so long. Greece approves of this msg.

    edit Also, the erroneous notion that "inflation" exists, is something I laugh about all time. Money does NOT "have" value; it IS value. If a farmer works 8 hrs a day to farm sorghum, it has 8 humans hours worth of worth. The value of that 8 hours of work, is not dependent on any factor other than greed, or parsimony amongst the buying public. Read up on your Aristotle. The value of commodities is only truly based on the work that goes into acquiring it. If manna requires 8 hrs a day to acquire, for a one-day supply, it's value is equal to whatever else requires 8 hrs for a one-day supply. Simple huh? If manna begins to fall from heaven, it's value drops substantially.
    Last edited by tenzing21; 2011-02-02 at 10:34 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Inflation is not good. Inflation is another form of Taxation. It lowers the value of your savings, because the more euros there are, the less is the value of the individual euro.
    Saving is throwing away potential investments. It's bad. It hurts the entire human race, since the money is basically unused human capacity. People worked for that money, and now the essence of their work does nothing productive. That's why excessive wealth disgusts me. People with ridiculous amounts of capital should start spending it.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by pixartist View Post
    Saving is throwing away potential investments. It's bad. It hurts the entire human race, since the money is basically unused human capacity. People worked for that money, and now the essence of their work does nothing productive. That's why excessive wealth disgusts me. People with ridiculous amounts of capital should start spending it.
    Saving is the basis for all prosperous economies. Unless you ofcourse mean taking money and putting it in your matress.
    Saving money and putting it in a bank let's the banker use this capital to lend to enteprenours. The more money is saved, the lower the interest rates (Less to lend = More expensive loans, lots to lend = cheaper loans). Lower interest rates makes it cheaper to create new business. Lower interest rates (Businessmen take this as a signal of More savings) also signal that consumers are delaying their consumtion into future. This gives another incentive to start new business.

    If people wouldn't save, there wouldn't be anything for the banks to lend.
    Except in todays world the Fed can just create a couple billion and lend it to the banks without objection, this wasn't the case 20 years ago.

  13. #33
    I'm pretty sure that regardless of how much money is in whose hands (bank, institutions, snl, under ur mattress etn ur manaz) that more will be printed. The Fed (a Congressionally-charter, but privately held corporation) is indifferent to market forces, it seems.

  14. #34
    There is nothing wrong with Fiat money. The problem with the Euro and the Dollar is that it is distributed to our governments by Private Banks like "The Federal Reserve" and "United Monetary Fund". Printed out of thin air and loaned to our governments with interest attached.

    Fiat Money is fine as long as its supply is Only increased by the nations that use it, and in only the amount needed to keep up with population growth. Responsibly done, there should never be inflation.
    It worked fine for England and Rome for hundreds of years.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Saving is the basis for all prosperous economies. Unless you ofcourse mean taking money and putting it in your matress.
    Saving money and putting it in a bank let's the banker use this capital to lend to enteprenours. The more money is saved, the lower the interest rates (Less to lend = More expensive loans, lots to lend = cheaper loans). Lower interest rates makes it cheaper to create new business. Lower interest rates (Businessmen take this as a signal of More savings) also signal that consumers are delaying their consumtion into future. This gives another incentive to start new business.

    If people wouldn't save, there wouldn't be anything for the banks to lend.
    Except in todays world the Fed can just create a couple billion and lend it to the banks without objection, this wasn't the case 20 years ago.
    True, but normal inflation does not impede investments as far as I know..

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by keeb View Post
    There is nothing wrong with Fiat money. The problem with the Euro and the Dollar is that it is distributed to our governments by Private Banks like "The Federal Reserve" and "United Monetary Fund". Printed out of thin air and loaned to our governments with interest attached.

    Fiat Money is fine as long as its supply is Only increased by the nations that use it, and in only the amount needed to keep up with population growth. Responsibly done, there should never be inflation.
    It worked fine for England and Rome for hundreds of years.
    Fiat could be fine but human nature will always take the best of it. If the currency was backed by something it would be significantly harder to just print more of it to cover fiscal deficits.

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-03 at 06:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pixartist View Post
    True, but normal inflation does not impede investments as far as I know..
    There's no "Normal inflation". And it infact does hurt investments, as people save less by keeping their money in the bank account, and thus raises interest rates. Higher interest rates makes it more expensive to invest.
    Currently there is huge hidden inflation which is being exported from the US and EU to china. This inflation (weakening of the currency) can be seen in increased commodity prices (Gold at record high levels, Sugar at 30year highs, Cotton at 150y highs etc). It just hasn't fully hit grocery stores yet, altough wallmart has been raising prices "in stealth" by lowering the size of package but keeping price same. Belgian supermarket chain Delhaize has also forced all their stores to sell food at below production costs to hide inflation.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2011-02-03 at 06:48 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Niridia View Post

    Immigration is important to Germany. Without immigration we would face a serious problem because of our overaged country. Multiculturalism kills what? The nationalist idiots who claim the soil they walk their godgiven land are the fucktards who actually "kill". Also Europe isn't that multicultural at all. Sure, Italy's culture is unlike the british culture. But know what? The culture behind all of that is the same. Christian crap. We have a common base. What divides us is mostly the language. Nothing else.

    And for the "History repeats itself"-thing...well, tell me a particular timespan something like the EU happened. Please, go on.
    And in what way exactly do those immigrants who burden our social system help our country ? Bailing out Ireland a good plan ? Because Germany doesn't have enough problems on its own ? And I hardly see the common base anywhere especially when mentioning about that little dictator gig called Italy.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2011-02-03 at 07:00 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •