Huge Reversal by Trion a month from "Rift" launch

[Stormdash]

Apparently fearing reports of potential profitability and popularity for their new MMO "Rift", Trion has announced that they plan on staving off those two potential disasters by removing 10 man versions of raid instances a month from launch (their only planned instance raid difficulty will be 20 man), even though these were explicitly advertised features of the game and they are already taking preorders.

Since I know WoW players can and will get into epeen swinging arguments over the virtues of 10 man raiding, I'm curious what the local perspective on this radical shift is.

Also, hooray for me for actually posting this on the subforum it would eventually get moved to anyway.

[FatedPrime]

even though these were explicitly advertised features of the game and they are already taking preorders.

Companies do this all the time.

Airplanes in Wintergrasp? Dance Studio? That's just two from WotLK.

[Stormdash]

True, they do it all the time, and it's rarely good publicity. This bodes no exception. In fact, I already made the dance studio comparison to the illusory promise of eventually making some 10 man instances in "Rift". I'm more wondering about how as a policy overall this stands to hurt their potential marketplace. 10 man raiding is a pretty big deal, feature wise, to pull right before launch. I mean, Cataclysm was an expansion, so addicts gonna be addicts and it would still sell a lot, but can you imagine the reaction if -- after 4.0 had gone out -- Blizzard said "oh yeah, and we're going back to just 25 mans starting with the three new raids, we may eventually put in some 10 man instances"? Trion is doing that before launch of a new game without people hooked on it for over 5 years.

Also, dremnit, I appreciate that you kept your pointless trolling brief

[Winterhoof]

Path of the Titans, anyone?

[Tarien]

Who cares.

[Scot]

True, they do it all the time, and it's rarely good publicity. This bodes no exception. In fact, I already made the dance studio comparison to the illusory promise of eventually making some 10 man instances in "Rift". I'm more wondering about how as a policy overall this stands to hurt their potential marketplace. 10 man raiding is a pretty big deal, feature wise, to pull right before launch. I mean, Cataclysm was an expansion, so addicts gonna be addicts and it would still sell a lot, but can you imagine the reaction if -- after 4.0 had gone out -- Blizzard said "oh yeah, and we're going back to just 25 mans starting with the three new raids, we may eventually put in some 10 man instances"? Trion is doing that before launch of a new game without people hooked on it for over 5 years.

Also, dremnit, I appreciate that you kept your pointless trolling brief

Since rift hasnt launched, it never had 10 man raids. WoW didn't have real 10 mans at launch, and even in BC 10 mans were separate raids, not just remakes of the 25 mans. I completely understand the reasoning and the thing most people don't seem to get is that to make a 10 man version you don't just reduce boss health. you have to completely retune the fight and mechanics. And as Blizzard is finding out, its near impossible to make 10=20, so that brings on a whole new wave of crying. Either 10 man is easier and no one wants to do 20 man or 10 man is harder and those "people with lives" (which always amuses me) wont be able to get their sweet pixels. Or if 10 and 20 mans had different gear then there'd be whining how 20 mans are "required". Blizzard just began tackling this beast, and I'd be willing to bet theyve thrown more money at it than Trion even has and its still nowhere near good.

[Jaylock]

Its called form 2 groups of 10 players and put them together. Plus this is an MMO, not a Massivly Solo RPG. If you 10 man fanboys want a solo game, go play mario brothers.

[Jesusatan]

It's Bata mate. I don't see any point or relevance to this.
Games will change and adapt to server, player and insider feedback.

Just what do you think a free beta invite is?

[xjum]

If you'd listened to the podcast and not just hearsay, you'd know they removed 10man *versions of 20mans* because of the detrimental impact it has on guilds and communities in a game. Basically, TBC/WoW did not have this feature, while WotLK/Cata did/does. Trion realized it was a mistake and decided it was one (of many) recent features in Warcraft not worth importing.

[Stormdash]

Its called form 2 groups of 10 players and put them together. Plus this is an MMO, not a Massivly Solo RPG. If you 10 man fanboys want a solo game, go play mario brothers.

Ten is solo? I prefer the /10char trolling.

I think Rift probably just went from about 500k to 1 million subscribers after the first year to... half that, to be honest.

[llDemonll]

If you'd listened to the podcast and not just hearsay, you'd know they removed 10mans because of the detrimental impact it has on guilds and communities in a game. Basically, TBC/WoW did not have this feature, while WotLK/Cata did/does. Trion realized it was a mistake and decided it was one (of many) recent features in Warcraft not worth importing.

except that BC did have 10 mans...

[yahtzo]

What kind of detrimental impact? The fact that in 10 mans every person has to actually pull their weight while in 20/25/40 mans you can have some slackers?

[xjum]

except that BC did have 10 mans...

You seem to be confused as well. The topic is about "multiple versions of the same raid", not "different raids with different parameters".
RIFT still has 10man raids and 20man raids, but will not have a drop down menu for each raid where you pick and choose your difficulty and setting. Instead, like WoW/TBC, the raids are just... "there".

What kind of detrimental impact?

Don't ask me, ask Trion - it's their idea/notion.

[Deleted]

except that BC did have 10 mans...

Classic had them too. Stratholme and Scholomance ones were ten mans and UBRS always was.

[Deleted]

Its called form 2 groups of 10 players and put them together. Plus this is an MMO, not a Massivly Solo RPG. If you 10 man fanboys want a solo game, go play mario brothers.

You really think that you can compare a 10 man group to a single player game. By the very definition of 10 player it's MULTIPLAYER.

Anyway, no doubt Trion will see the same issues in thier game and add them back in at a later date.

[Stormdash]

All this talk of the corrosive impact of 10 man raiding on a game's viability is such a joke when you consider how much more business Blizzard does now than they did in vanilla. It's a total laugh off, because to make the argument you have to simultaneously say that every other feature is the reason why, in spite of 10 man raiding, WoW gained popularity. Trion isn't doing themselves any favors.

I'm disappointed because I'm pretty damned ambivalent about WoW at this point, but no 10 man Rift content is almost a complete dealbreaker, fantastic character system or not.

[xjum]

ya bro because wotlk/cata are just "better" than vanilla/TBC

no 10 man Rift content is almost a complete dealbreaker

Being one who misses 40man raiding, it was actually a deal maker for me that they removed 10mans

[Jesusatan]

GW2..can't wait. I love 5 man stuff. (just not in wow)

40 mans were wow1 (hated it so much words fail me)

wow 2 & 3 were 10-25 (better) ...I really did enjoy the hell out of TBC)

wow version 4 (it's still newish but iom, raids in Cata are fun so far....I will not wait a year doing the same thing stuff tho, heroic or not)

___________________________________
Edit: a spelling correction

[luedieniel]

Classic had them too. Stratholme and Scholomance ones were ten mans and UBRS always was.

UBRS was 15man once upon a time

Oh and there is a vast difference between having 2 versions of the same raid (10/25)man compared to the system in TBC where you had different raids for 10man compared to 25man.

I don't mind this "change" at all and I'm sure it will be fine.

[oplawlz]

No matter the excuse they made, the simple fact is managing two different raid sizes (plus pvp and 5 man dungeons) is hard work. It adds a whole new element of balance and potential mechanics abuse, and as mentioned trion does not yet have millions in monthly revenue to throw at these problems.

Good PR tries to make it sound like the game would benefit from having only large raids, but simple economics is the answer.