Claws of Torment/Agony

[Malathala]

Not only is the itemization better on maimgores bite, HIT/mastery vs HASTE/mastery. the haste proc just doesnt make up for the direct stat loss, maybe on SMF warriors (assuming they need haste?) the loss of stats is worth it, but to lose 146 agility, 97 hit, to gain a random proc for 1k haste when it is basically the worst stat for us.

But when in doubt sim it. For me Torment and Maimgor came out in front so thats what i use.

[cohcheto]

No need for simming it. Maimgore's has Agi instead of Strenght, higher DPS, and the same secondary stats but just more of them. There's no reason for simming it - Maimgore's is obviously better

Its called weapon speed, the biggest dps increase we can get. The (former) rolling pin is quite competitive with the epic weapons from normal raids, you have to sim it to see which is better.

[ChrisKoe]

can we say 2.8 is better then 2.6???

For weapons with equal DPS: yes.
Maimgore's has still higher average damage than Cookie's (1202 vs 1146.5) and both higher low-end and top-end damage.
Maimgore's Bite is a better weapon in every regard.

[jobdone]

Its called weapon speed, the biggest dps increase we can get. The (former) rolling pin is quite competitive with the epic weapons from normal raids, you have to sim it to see which is better.

I thought slower weapons we better because slower = higher top end damage.
Cookie's Tenderizer = 802 - 1491 Damage
Maimgor's Bite = 841 - 1563 Damage

Hight top end and low end. Regardless of weapon speed.

[cohcheto]

I thought slower weapons we better because slower = higher top end damage.
Cookie's Tenderizer = 802 - 1491 Damage
Maimgor's Bite = 841 - 1563 Damage

Hight top end and low end. Regardless of weapon speed.

Nope. Slower weapons are better because most of our skill are not normalized for weapons speed, which means they do more damage the slower your weapons are. So in the case of specials you have the same cooldown with way more damage.

[jobdone]

I thought people mentioned weapon speed JUST because of topend damage.
Whats the formulae for skills are normalized for weapons speed?

[Bingus]

Proc is better. Keep Torment/Agony

[remial7767]

Nope. Slower weapons are better because most of our skill are normalized for weapons speed, which means they do more damage the slower your weapons are. So in the case of specials you have the same cooldown with way more damage and it also affects WF and FT damage since they are also normalized.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Only reason slower weapons are ever chosen is because they tend to have a higher top end, and as was previously stated, Maimgor has a higher top end despite being faster. That and all the optimal stats easily makes Maimgor superior and every way. The speed itself really has nothing to do with it...its all in the top end.

[jobdone]

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Only reason slower weapons are ever chosen is because they tend to have a higher top end, and as was previously stated, Maimgor has a higher top end despite being faster. That and all the optimal stats easily makes Maimgor superior and every way. The speed itself really has nothing to do with it...its all in the top end.

That's what I thought, thanks.

[bpcatt1]

It never ceases to amaze me how dismissive morons are of other people's statements.

As with everything, the answer to this question is not as easy as it appears. The first question is what race are you? If you are an orc, maimgor's bite beats the claw off-hand and the proc combined hands down... period. If you are a dwarf, cookie's tenderizer and torture's mercy (yes, a caster mace) are BiS until 372 Nef axes. However, they beat Maimgor's/Crul'korak by a minimal amount of damage. So, why do they sim higher... racials. Both classes have racial expertise bonuses for those weapon types.

If you don't believe me, follow the link to EJ in the enhancement sticky on these forums (first line)... you know, the place where all the actual number crunching theorycrafting takes place... not just people ranting their opinions. Post #85 of that thread has all the sim information noted for you. If you are neither a dwarf or an orc... as with EVERY other gear question... you have to sim your gear, spec, and priority system to find the correct answer.

In closing... which weapon makes LL hit harder? Maimgor's bite. Which weapon is best overall? Your answer is what you just read. Look past the surface people... items are not in a vacuum.

/thread

[cohcheto]

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Only reason slower weapons are ever chosen is because they tend to have a higher top end, and as was previously stated, Maimgor has a higher top end despite being faster. That and all the optimal stats easily makes Maimgor superior and every way. The speed itself really has nothing to do with it...its all in the top end.

Actually, good sir, you have no idea what you are talking about, but i admit i made a mistake - our special are actually not normalized, which is what gives the increased benefit that i mention in my prev post. You see both SS and LL are not normalized, which means they get more damage from attack power the slower the weapon is - go to wowpedia/Normalization (i cant post links yet).

As for weapon enchants, here is what is posted for WF in elitistjerks - "Additionally the instant cast nature of the Windfury proc greatly benefits from slower weapons and their higher damage range. Since there is no way to speed up the cooldown of the Windfury proc, or to proc more often by using a fast weapon, the only way to increase damage done by Windfury Weapon is to use a slow, high DPS weapon."
For FT, here is the quote from 3.1.0 patch notes - "Bonus damage from spell power now based on weapon speed. Slower weapons will benefit more from spell power."

Also since Maelstrom Weapon is PPM it also benefits from slower weapons.

[Seranov]

Cookie's Tenderizer is ~100 DPS more for me than Maimgor's Bite, and I'd imagine it'd be a little less than that for other people.

Speed is so unbelievably important for an offhand weapon that the Tenderizer is far and away the best blue pre-raid OH for Enhance, and will even parse very well against epic offhands before H Nef. With un-normalized attacks, FT scaling based on slower weapons and MW proccing more with a slower weapon, there is LOTS of reason that you shouldn't discount Cookie's Tenderizer.

Remember: Just because it's purple, doesn't mean it's an upgrade.

-e-

Also, top end is absolutely irrelevant to an Enhancement Shaman. It's the average of the damage range that is important, and for all equal-level weapons, it will be exactly the same.

[jobdone]

The normalized weapon damage for instant attacks is:
normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)
where X is:
1.7 for daggers
2.4 for other one-handed weapons
3.3 for two-handed weapons
2.8 for ranged weapons
weapon speed for non-normalized attacks (see below)
Prior to patch 1.8, the weapon damage used for instant attacks was:
damage = base_weapon_damage + (weapon_speed * Attack Power / 14)
Note that ...
base_weapon_damage + weapon_speed * Attack Power / 14
is simply the formula for weapon (white) hit damage, as 14 AP = 1 DPS. The nomalized formula treats your weapon as if its swing time was a certain normal value for its type (1.7 sec for daggers, 3.3 sec for two-handed weapons, etc).
Nearly all instant attacks based upon weapon damage are affected by normalization; only a few are not.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Normalisation

[Memoryz]

Cookie's Tenderizer is ~100 DPS more for me than Maimgor's Bite, and I'd imagine it'd be a little less than that for other people.

Speed is so unbelievably important for an offhand weapon that the Tenderizer is far and away the best blue pre-raid OH for Enhance, and will even parse very well against epic offhands before H Nef. With un-normalized attacks, FT scaling based on slower weapons and MW proccing more with a slower weapon, there is LOTS of reason that you shouldn't discount Cookie's Tenderizer.

Remember: Just because it's purple, doesn't mean it's an upgrade.

-e-

Also, top end is absolutely irrelevant to an Enhancement Shaman. It's the average of the damage range that is important, and for all equal-level weapons, it will be exactly the same.

This guy deserves a medal.

[Dwight Howard]

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Only reason slower weapons are ever chosen is because they tend to have a higher top end, and as was previously stated, Maimgor has a higher top end despite being faster. That and all the optimal stats easily makes Maimgor superior and every way. The speed itself really has nothing to do with it...its all in the top end.

Not that I know about what attacks for shams are normalized or not as I play a war/rogue. But actually, just to clarify, Higher avg damage on a weapon per swing does not always mean higher avg damage output per swing. Why? Because attack power increases DPS, not damage. for example, say you had 2 weapons to choose from, one with a 3.0 second swing timer that has an avg damage of 800 per swing (266.67dps), one with a 2 second swing timer that has an avg damage of 900 per swing (450dps). Now say you had enough attack power to increase your dps by 1500. That would leave your 3.0 second weapon doing 1766.67dps before haste (which will not effect dmg per swing), with an avg weapon swing hitting for 5,300. It would also leave your 2.0 second swing time weapon with an avg of 1950dps before haste, and leave it with an avg weapon swing hitting for 3,900. note that these are theoretical numbers and might not actually apply to this discussion more then just informing that avg weapon dmg of the weapon =/= avg weapon dmg of an actual swing.

[Deleted]

well this in some ways answers the questions i have about agony have a unequipted claw in my bags atm and really dont know what to do with it

using torment mh and the gladiators left ripper atm was going to sim it but cant for the life of me figure out how it works asume someone else could do it for me but uncertain how

[LyskaWF]

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Only reason slower weapons are ever chosen is because they tend to have a higher top end, and as was previously stated, Maimgor has a higher top end despite being faster. That and all the optimal stats easily makes Maimgor superior and every way. The speed itself really has nothing to do with it...its all in the top end.

I sincerely hope this is a troll, and you've been reported for it. The reason slower weapons are chosen is primarily because of the weapon speed.

[Simca]

I sincerely hope this is a troll, and you've been reported for it. The reason slower weapons are chosen is primarily because of the weapon speed.

It's not trolling, I'm pretty sure he believes that, so I'm not going to punish him further for his mistake.

[grayfoxx64]

I know this in the wrong class forums but i wanted to ask a question on these weapons as well, im smf war, have been since cata release and have been using the 2 str fist weapons from pvp and i was wondering how would agony/torment compare being that one has str and the other has agi
~ vulpusrex from silvermoon

[Murderdoll]

Youll be better asking your own class forums because they would have a better idea how haste is for you in weighting. Whether that 1000 haste and crit from Agi makes up for the loss in Str. If you value haste quite well, I suspect you will probably want to pick it up.

With that being said, anecdotaly speaking, a few Warriors on my server have been trying to buy the Agi Mainhand for a while.