CS not granting HP on dodge/parry too harsh? (Ret)

[Boroher]

I never said it was. BUT what I said is, I don't get punished for dodges/parries. 80% energy refunded and I still get my Envenom buff.

Eh-hem.

"NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH"

I don't need holy power to trash rogues as protection.

[JayJay09]

It definitely is too harsh.. Make Dks lose runes when missing and ferals and rogues energy.. And I'd call it even.

But.. Funniest thing is.. They sell this as a "bugfix" but the bugfix they mentioned when the ptr opened (the one which should fix holy wrath to stop killing critters) does not work -.-...

HW = Critter Killer #1.

[Malthanis]

It definitely is too harsh.. Make Dks lose runes when missing and ferals and rogues energy.. And I'd call it even.

But.. Funniest thing is.. They sell this as a "bugfix" but the bugfix they mentioned when the ptr opened (the one which should fix holy wrath to stop killing critters) does not work -.-...

HW = Critter Killer #1.

It still targets them, but it doesn't count them in the damage division. For example...

Targets: 2 random dragonkin and 1 rat
Damage: 6000 Holy (completely arbitrary number)

Pre 4.0.6: 6000 damage / 3 targets = 2000 damage per target

Post 4.0.6: 6000 damage / (3 targets - 1 critter) = 3000 damage per target

Back to the topic at hand:
Fully resetting the cool-down of Crusader Strike wouldn't be in line with the other melee's miss mechanics. At best, it should be cut in half, or to make it easier, a 2 second CD.

[Aramore]

Back to the topic at hand:
Fully resetting the cool-down of Crusader Strike wouldn't be in line with the other melee's miss mechanics. At best, it should be cut in half, or to make it easier, a 2 second CD.

Including the Global Cooldown just used when using Crusader strike in the first place that leaves a .5 second time to wait which would just be awkward.

[Reith]

Back to the topic at hand:
Fully resetting the cool-down of Crusader Strike wouldn't be in line with the other melee's miss mechanics. At best, it should be cut in half, or to make it easier, a 2 second CD.

That's a logical fallacy, known as the Middle Ground fallacy. You don't give a good reason(s) why it should be in the middle. You only propose that because you think that it being in the middle makes it more balanced just because it's in the middle.

[Malthanis]

Including the Global Cooldown just used when using Crusader strike in the first place that leaves a .5 second time to wait which would just be awkward.

Eh, didn't say it was perfect. But really, the CD is the only resource that can get partially "refunded" to bring it in line with the other melee classes. I suppose they could give us mana back, but seriously, who worries about mana as Prot or Ret anymore?

That's a logical fallacy, known as the Middle Ground fallacy. You don't give a good reason(s) why it should be in the middle. You only propose that because you think that it being in the middle makes it more balanced just because it's in the middle.

The good reason is the fact that no melee class has an ability that fully refunds it's cost when it fails to connect. Warriors still lose some rage, rogues still lose some energy. DKs lose all of the RP spent on an ability that costs RP, and they lose a GCD when a rune ability fails to connect. The only real resource to refund on a CS that fails to connect is the CD.

[afatgoat]

how do you avoid needing to stand in front of chimaeron? and also, saying a boss is easy is not, in my opinion, a valid reason to say whether an ability/mechanic is unfairly detrimental to our dps/rotation. By that logic, the only time we should evaluate the impact of a certain ability or mechanic is when we are unable to kill a boss and know for certain that this mechanic is the reason why.

and for maloriak, healers will usually drop their ae heals in front of the boss (where everyone else is) so the most people are able to be healed. so to me, needing to choose between attacking from the front of the boss and getting heals, or attacking from behind the boss and possibly not getting heals is a no brainer. I understand it is not IMPERATIVE to attack from the front all the time. but for the sake of the raid, its in THEIR best interest that I do, so help avoid unnecessary/stupid deaths.

and i did not know about the twin dragons and that you could stand at the neck and still split the damage, thank you for that. will just need to get used to being yelled at over vent to stack on tank until they believe me that i am still splitting the damage.

But yeah, how do you not need to attack from in front of chimaeron during fued while the bile-o-tron is down?

Chymy :If your tank picks him up on the right wall so his side faces the door. When he feuds, everyone stacks up on the edge where the water meets the floor. Melee will have range and be behind him, the tank won't need to be right in front of him as he's channeling. Everyone runs out as soon as feud ends.
Malorak : If you run boss mods, there's a timer for everytime he breathes. If your melee are dumb, leave them in front.
Twins: Ph1 - only run in onto the tank for blackout. otherwise be spread out or behind. ph2: Only need to run in and stack up when someone has the arrow on their head. There's a timer. Again, if melee are dumb, leave them stacked up in front.

[Direknyte]

I believe it was never intended to grant HP, it was a bug from the get go. You should not be rewarded for missing your target. Stack hit like other melee classes have to.

[Deleted]

They should indeed make it so that CS does not go on cooldown if it fails to lands. Right now is just completely retarded.

[Sedativ]

Its not an issue in PVE at all. There are very little instances in all of the PvE encounters where you need to / should be in front of the boss. At most you'll get parried 1 or 2 times, and that is not overly destructive to your DPS in the large scheme of a 5-10 minute encounter.

I can understand it from a PvP perspective where that HP could be the difference in a win or a loss in arena, but the mechanic makes sense either way.

But to answer the topic thread, it is not too harsh on ret at all.

Edit: I also find it funny that when they finally buff us and make us competitive and bring us up from the drudges people still manage to find a way to complain.

[Communion]

This is a far worse change for us prot paladins. I can't really justify reforging away from avoidance to hit/expertise -- and strings of misses are killing me now. If a warrior misses his shield slam, no big deal, he pushes the key again. If we miss a couple of crusader strikes in a row, it puts us behind on our shield slam / word of glory by up to 6 seconds. And that's if we're just missing 2 in a row.

This has really killed my threat generation on threat fights, and survivability on survivability fights.

I agree with the others that this is a no-big-deal thing for ret paladins. Position yourself better.

[Harith]

all i am saying is i don't get rage if my white swing gets dodged or parried so just learn to live with it and get expertise to soft cap that not that hard

[Vasti]

The good reason is the fact that no melee class has an ability that fully refunds it's cost when it fails to connect. Warriors still lose some rage, rogues still lose some energy. DKs lose all of the RP spent on an ability that costs RP, and they lose a GCD when a rune ability fails to connect. The only real resource to refund on a CS that fails to connect is the CD.

Missing a Templars verdict results in NO resource loss. You retain all your holy power.
Also, making CS reset CD on misses does not bring back the mana spend on using it. so its not a full refund.

[zcks]

Warriors also regain 80% of their rage when an attack fails to land, rogues & ferals also regain 60-80% of their energy & deathknights do not lose runes when attacks from them fail to land (the only melee attack they have which requires RP is runestrike & frost strike & runic power generation is insanely high anyway.

So really all those other melee specs lose is a GCD & about 20-40% of the energy/rage they would have used.

It would not be so hard on us if we had a secondary short Cd attack which always generated it but we don't, It would also be much more forgiving if Divine Purpose had a 100% proc chance off of a couple abilities instead of a small chance off of so many.

[Deleted]

I never said it was. BUT what I said is, I don't get punished for dodges/parries. 80% energy refunded and I still get my Envenom buff.

Eh-hem.

"NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH"

Your comparison is totally off ...
Sinister Strike and Mutilate don't grant CP at dodge/parry like Crusader Strike
A dodged/parried Envenom grants you the buff, but if this happens 95% of the time you will immediately smash the button a second time, only granting you 1 sec more of the buff. Also your SnD could drop if you get unlucky with parry/dodge which is a huge DPS-loss.

On topic:
It's a huge change i think. But i have more problems as ProtPala with this change :/

They should indeed make it so that CS does not go on cooldown if it fails to lands. Right now is just completely retarded.

This is the major problem!

[Ace192]

I thought that the whole dodge/parry/miss thing on CS was a bug and they hotfixed it in?

[Deleted]

A Dodge/Miss should not generate HP...you havent hit the target
Rogues/druids, Miss and get energy refunded....no CP
DK misses, Rune on CD...no runic power if it generates it i would imagine

Maloriak, Red flask (not a whole fight) V + T,(one drake not a whole fight), Chimeron not at all..(caustic slime reduces hit so doesnt matter if u face him during feud).

You moaning about a few misses, at these times a feral druid cannot shred; DPS loss from mangling instead of shreding....then take into account the loss of 6 seconds of Rip uptime due to the shred glyph...it hurts us alot more than it hurts you.


PS isnt expertise you 2nd best secondary stat after hit according to EJ.... so you really shouldnt be dodged and the change of parry reduces as well

[Malthanis]

Missing a Templars verdict results in NO resource loss. You retain all your holy power.
Also, making CS reset CD on misses does not bring back the mana spend on using it. so its not a full refund.

You're comparing apples to oranges on the first bit. We're talking about the generation of holy power, not the use of it. The fact that our primary (only, really) holy power generating ability has a cool-down. Is that a problem? No, it makes us different from the other melee specs, and I'm okay with that. However, we don't get a similar mitigating factor when we do miss (i.e. what zcks listed above).

The mana cost, as I've stated, is trivial. Mana is almost a non-resource to Prot and Ret, and it only matters in certain situations. Refunding the mana on a missed CS would be more of an insult than a boon.

[Lyese]

This is a far worse change for us prot paladins. I can't really justify reforging away from avoidance to hit/expertise -- and strings of misses are killing me now. If a warrior misses his shield slam, no big deal, he pushes the key again. If we miss a couple of crusader strikes in a row, it puts us behind on our shield slam / word of glory by up to 6 seconds. And that's if we're just missing 2 in a row.

This has really killed my threat generation on threat fights, and survivability on survivability fights.

I agree with the others that this is a no-big-deal thing for ret paladins. Position yourself better.

Except Shield Slam's cooldown is flagged. He can't push it again. Working as intended.

[Tuccoyote265]

I believe it was never intended to grant HP, it was a bug from the get go. You should not be rewarded for missing your target. Stack hit like other melee classes have to.

You completely missed the entire point of the thread. The OP is not referring to misses, he's referring to parries (it even says so in the title). There are 3 ways of avoiding damage in this game:
Miss - this is countered by having enough Hit 8% for single weapon, 27% for dual wield
Dodge - this is countered by having enough Expertise, which is 26 for dodge
Parry - this is countered by having enough Expertise, which is 56 for parries

The reason Melee attack from behind is that it is impossible to parry an attack from someone who is behind you. The OP is referring to boss fights where the Melee have to stand in front of the boss. Since you are now standing in front of the boss, he can parry you, and since melee usually don't stack enough Expertise to get to 56, the boss can now parry your attacks.

This problem doesn't affect all melee classes evenly because a lot of their special attacks cannot be dodged or parried by the boss (instead they are controlled by spell hit or just assumed that they will always hit). Ret and Prot Paladins are different because they are required to build up a resource in order to power other abilities and now this build up can miss or be dodged or parried without increasing the resource. That is why the rogues are speaking up, because of the similar combo system.

And by the way, the developers never stated that this is how it was originally supposed to function, therefore it's not a bug, but a content change.

Personally I'm not as concerned about Ret with this issue since as everyone else stated, there is less reason to stand in front of the boss if you are quick and pay attention. However, Prot should have gotten something in a talent to turn hit into Expertise or something. Blizzard is obviously trying to make sure that all Melee play by the Hit and Expertise cap rules, therefore this will punish Melee that are trying to slide under the caps. Instead they are punishing tanks because of an unrealistic requirement. With the RNG system, it is possible for a tank that is under the Expertise hard cap to get every single CS/HotR parried during a boss fight (pretty slim odds of course, but still possible).