Tower of Radiance: Bad design Encouraging Bad Play

[Kadas]

Canonically, Holy Paladins have to spend three talent points on ToR, which gives one Holy Power whenever you Divine Light your Beacon Target (I like to pretend that Flash of Light doesn't exist). This is sort of a deal with the devil; One HPwr in exchange for a 33% reduction in throughput (due to the loss of 50% Beacon transfer). I'm curious as to when it became universally accepted that this is a good deal and worth three talent points.

In my World of Logs (example) I consistently see ToR provide pitiful HPwr returns compared to Blessed Life, Holy Shock (obv), and Crusader Strike. I run three Holy Paladins in our 25s so it's possible I can afford not to heal the beaconed target since there is probably another Paladin direct-healing him. I understand not everyone has the luxury of being able to trust the rest of their healers, but just throwing this out there...

ToR encourages inefficient healing practices and costs talent points that can be used elsewhere. I don't think we should be so deathly afraid of RNG that we jump at this talent just because it can guarantee Holy Power generation on demand (with a slight and intensely annoying delay). I'm trying 2/3 this week in raids and I don't know... maybe I'll hate it and recant this whole idea but really - just wanted to encourage everyone to challenge conventional wisdom and try new things, and of course to share their opinions/experiences regarding the subject.

Also my little pipe dream: Blizzard runs reports on least-used talents and if everyone decides it sucks, they'll eventually change it.

[Fiercon]

My thoughts exactly! I was about to post something similar on the healing priority thread where someone mentioned this as go-to-strategy. I recently specced out of ToR (since there are ENOUGH abilities to spend them in). 44 HP over a complete raid evening compared to 230 from EG and 65 from BL doesn't make up for 3 spent talent points.

It doesn't only reduce your evective on-time healing it also increases chance of overheal, chance of failure due to singletarget healing (where alsmost everytime 2 or more people are injured) and the thought that using divine light + ToR is a smarter healing than HL+HS+normal beaconing is onyl true if mana and reaction time don't matter. I assume that most of you favouring the DL+ToR strategy already have superior gear since I can see my mana literally slipping through my fingers when DL healing. Balancing the load of healing on several targets gives other healers the chance to balance theirs too. Bombing is no good since other targets need to be aswell then where both of them could be healed just as good if two healers were equally occupied with both injured players.

---------- Post added 2011-02-14 at 03:45 PM ----------

That said, I don't think ToR is encouraging bad play for everyone. Some might fall to the conclusion that - yes - they are now supposed to heal that way. I like to think of it more as a 25% mana reduction in DL. If need arises and the tank must be healed with strong heals every 4th comes for free (even more with EG).

[Brashara]

I like ToR. We run with one holy paladin and I leave my beacon on a tank (25-man). When that tank takes a ton of spike damage, i'm dropping Divine Light bombs on them, and the instant WoG is AMAZING because it means if I have to move (waterlogged?) then my tank doesn't die.

[Kadas]

i don't disagree that Wog being instant is in fact amazing, but not following how that supports an argument for ToR - help me out.

[Rust in Peace]

they have been slowly killing holy pal synergy for a while now. it's blizz's idea of "balancing" them.

[Brashara]

i don't disagree that Wog being instant is in fact amazing, but not following how that supports an argument for ToR - help me out.

The fact that if i'm healing a tank through heavy damage i'm ENSURED a 3pt WoG just from doing it instead of having to sit on 3 HP for a long time is invaluable.



to OP: Just because it doesn't help in your particular healing comps/styles doesn't mean its bad, but thats why its a talent and you can CHOOSE where you put them. There are plenty of other good options, as you've said, so be happy you've taken one of those instead of lamenting the existing of one that you personally don't use in your healing style.

[Talashar]

I run raids using a DL/HS rotation and i don't see any mana issues except on fights like Magmaw. Mind you i have a LOT of spirit and i generally use mana CDs as they come available (Dream Owl from JC, Potions of Concentration) I almost never actually use a DL on my beaconed target unless the tank is either severely injured or no one else has taken damage sufficient to require a DL. ToR has become somewhat of an "it happens occasionally..." talent as opposed to the original free HP with every heal from Holy Light (Which was OP as all get out).

My question is what else would you spend the talent points on? Blessed Life doesnt look that great to me. and i dont see any more viable talents to spend 3 points on. Yes, you arent getting a HUGE benefit from having it. but it is there for when you need it (Spike bursts on the MT) i see it similar to Last Word in situational use.

Please point out errors in my judgement if you see them, i would be glad to hear criticism. I dont believe i can post links yet as i am a bit of a newbie to posting here, but i am Talashar of the guild "The Leet Cheese" on Garona-US

[Nutz]

I agree that three points is too many for ToR (I'd like to see it cut down to 1 point) but I will not go so far as to say the talent encourages bad play. There are fights (Nef in phase 1 where the two tanks are too far apart for my heals on one tank to transfer to the beaconed tank, as well as Conclave of Wind) where I am directly healing my beacon target. Being able to consitently generate 3HP WoG's to help out on tank healing is very nice in these situations.

Yes, the healing effeciency is lessened by directly healing your beacon target, but sometimes it is called for. I guess I'm not seeing how this is considered bad play.

[Deleted]

I still find it very useful in arenas. For raids it's value is questionable, I would say it's situational at best.

[Kadas]

Ah - allow me to backpedal then - an inefficient healing strategy to me is bad play. A necessary evil sometimes? Sure. Do i do it too? Absolutely.
I used the phrase "encourages bad play" because more synergistic play happens when other healers are helping keep your target up as it frees you to spread your healing around the raid without negating one of your most powerful abilities (beacon). I know that sounds like "being carried".

It is. Part of "good" play is trusting the other healers - if that means being carried then so be it. You are carrying them as well.

As a practical example, if at a given moment in the encounter your "best choice" is to DL the off-tank instead of the (beaconed) MT because your druid has full hots rolling on him and your holy priest has been keeping renew rolling then this is significantly "better" healing synergy. You probably just kept one or both other healers from freaking out and casting a big, expensive heal on the OT. You saved them mana, you got more HPS - it's just better. If you let them deal with the OT in that scenario you gain... one HPwr out of it.

I should have used better word choice. You're not bad, nothing you do is bad, you're wonderful, I love you all, etc. There just may be a better way.

Brashara - thanks for pointing out that talents are choices. That may have even been the point of this thread. The difference is that I'm suggesting a choice that is outside of accepted conventions. I know it's scary.

Talashar - I know Pursuit of Justice is being taken by many "pro" raiders these days. Two points in Blessed Life has consistently netted me more HPwr than three points in ToR, but I hear one point is almost as good. A point in Enlightened Judgments helps your regen since your Judgment won't miss. There are a lot of interesting options for us and tbh i don't know what the "best" choices are (hence the discussion!).

[Brashara]

Ah - allow me to backpedal then - an inefficient healing strategy to me is bad play. A necessary evil sometimes? Sure. Do i do it too? Absolutely.

Brashara - thanks for pointing out that talents are choices. That may have even been the point of this thread. The difference is that I'm suggesting a choice that is outside of accepted conventions. I know it's scary.

What I meant to convey to you was that for it is an extremely optimal talent and I love it. Your healing comp/setup is different than mine and in mine its very good. I don't want it gone because I like it.

[Reith]

It's probably not a good choice if you're mainly a raid healer.

[Talashar]

Ah - allow me to backpedal then - an inefficient healing strategy to me is bad play. A necessary evil sometimes? Sure. Do i do it too? Absolutely.
Talashar - I know Pursuit of Justice is being taken by many "pro" raiders these days. Two points in Blessed Life has consistently netted me more HPwr than three points in ToR, but I hear one point is almost as good. A point in Enlightened Judgments helps your regen since your Judgment won't miss. There are a lot of interesting options for us and tbh i don't know what the "best" choices are (hence the discussion!).

Yes i have the single point in enlightened judgements and judge almost on CD. And i agree that we have a lot of places to put points. I do have two questions though.. where would you get the points for PoJ? Is dropping Divinity or Eternal Glory really worth the chance at a single HP from a stun or fear? And also... does Blessed life proc from Area of Effect damage? because according to how the talent reads i would have to be tanking something for it to be useful. ive always dismissed it as a PvP talent. I wholeheartedly agree that ToR is not worth 3 points but it has saved me a few times where a tank would otherwise have died (being nomnom'd by Mag and not popping a CD for instance) and using DL spam with WoGs thrown in i can reach upwards of 20k throughput for burst damage. but again it is very situational and i cannot sustain that amount of healing indefinitely. (although i have sustained 17k for an entire magmaw fight once. was pretty epic )

[Kadas]

where would you get the points for PoJ?

From eternal glory, generally. this is only for builds focusing on 25s that that can use LoD to maximum effect though. Also - i think it's more for the movement speed increase and the HPwr is just icing. this is another sort of controversial talent point decision specific to your focus.

does Blessed life proc from Area of Effect damage?

Yeah it procs from most aoe boss abilities. Like if they aoe shadow nova it will proc it, but if they create puddles of death that you stand in it won't (I think - someone else could probably give a better explanation)

Your healing comp/setup is different than mine and in mine its very good. I don't want it gone because I like it.

What's funny about our whole debate is that I might try it tonight and come back here completely agreeing with you!

[dementor]

I'm not sure why Paladins put two points in Enlightened Judgement. 1 point is enough for judge not to miss, unless people are in it purely for the additional 5 yards of range. Most times I find I have to sneak in closer to the boss anyway to be in range of healing the melee, so this point I think could be used elsewhere.

To me ToR is an all 3 point or none talent. If i spec into it, I want to know 100% that I will get a holy power if I cast divine light on the beacon. I don't cast on the beacon though, so I put 2 points in blessed life (which will surely give me more h pow than ToR for less points), and went 2/2 in Last Word with the logic that I only use WoG when someone is in danger of dying. In terms of maximizing output, specing into Last Word is minimal. Healing is more than maximizing output though, it is also making sure everyone stays alive.

Talashar- Most people that buy into PoJ being beneficial give up Eternal Glory. Eternal Glory is great for 10 mans especially since you are probably sitting on the tanks anyway. In 25 mans though I find Word of Glory not being part of my healing tools. Everytime I have a 3 stack of HPow, it goes straight into LoD. This goes back to the OP's main point, which to me is, maximizing your output. If you want to maximize your output, you don't heal the beaconed target, if you want to maximize your output, you use LoD over WoG (provided at least 3-4 people are injured, which in 25s is almost always the case).

Nutz- Nefarian it is more than possible to have ony and nef tank within 100 yards of each other (beacon is 60, other heals are 40 with you in the middle). Your tanks are completely crippling your healing output by being spread further than that.

Lastly, I couldn't agree with Kadas more. You and your healers have to trust each other and create synergy so everyone on the team is maximizing their output. Analyze your healing comp, create a strategy that emphasizes the strengths of the individual healers and execute.

[Simca]

Does encourage bad play? Yes, probably.

However, it isn't a bad talent, and in most cases it is still extremely useful. Just browsing through the armories of top Holy Paladins in the world, almost all of them have it. Edit: All 15 Paragon Holy specs have it 3/3.

[Whoopsa]

Yeah it procs from most aoe boss abilities. Like if they aoe shadow nova it will proc it, but if they create puddles of death that you stand in it won't (I think - someone else could probably give a better explanation)

Resto Shammy here, and I'm here to tell you guys that Blessed Life functions in exactly the same way Water Shield does (I think the ICD might be a bit different, but the way it procs is the same). The rules on it proccing are a little silly. It seems like it procs from pretty much ANYTHING that is a targeted ability. Channeled AoEs, random targeted spells (Shadowflame Barrage), and things that are a single hit all seem to proc it. In any given fight, I'm refreshing WS about once every 30 seconds. That's 3 procs, which for you guys would translate into 3 HP, and thus a free WG or LoD. In short, Blessed life is an amazing talent and will see some use on just about every fight, with some (Nefarion comes to mind) keeping it on cooldown for the entire fight.

[Zhalseran]

Holy is my offspec so forgive me if I speak with some inexperience here.

Personally I really liked ToR when it was also effected by Holy Light. It felt like a solid mechanic that offered a lot of flexibility which I liked very much. The old holy light + LoD spam clearly needed to be nerfed, but as a mechanic I thought the talent really worked.

Recently I've been playing around with my holy spec a bit trying to find the best cache-all for me as someone who does casual healing in both PvE and PvP (as well as juggling points around based on whether or not Conviction was bugged). My latest spec is probably my favorite so far, and I took out Tower of Radiance entirely. I felt like the only time it was ever really useful was when I was being reckless and spamming heals on the beacon purely to pop out a really fast LoD, when really I probably would have been just fine using some other combination of abilities

I would tend to agree that it encourages "bad play", both in that healing the beacon and using ToR's listed heals are both considered "bad" typically.

[Talashar]

Well shoot. Looks like ill be making a spec with Blessed Life now :/ heh. i didnt realize it would give me that much HP. i can probably pop the 2 points out of Paragon of Virtue as i tend to use Divine Favor a LOT more than wings. (i like using it in conjunction with HolyRadiance for the extra ticks) And i almost never use my guardian. Im probably a failadin but i get through most content. havent gotten to any end bossses yet though :/ I am starting to lead a raid this week with my guild and we should be 6-7/12 in a couple of weeks.

[Simca]

In my logs, things switch around a lot.

Eternal Glory can sometimes be at the VERY bottom in HP gen. Other times, it can be way at the top. Tower of Radiance is usually slightly below Blessed Life, with Blessed Life being around 10 HP and Tower of Radiance being around 6 HP.

The thing is that Tower of Radiance's Holy Power gains are almost always important. The others aren't.

My personal vote is:

1. Take Tower of Radiance.
2. Take Eternal Glory if you aren't getting Pursuit of Justice. Otherwise, get Pursuit of Justice.
3. Remove a talent point from Sacred Cleansing and put it into Blessed Life if you have two of the following (three in 25-mans): Resto Shaman or Priests

Pursuit of Justice spec without Sacred Cleansing: http://wowtal.com/#k=tfAi4217.aei.paladin.
Eternal Glory spec without Sacred Cleansing: http://wowtal.com/#k=terZRbAB.aei.paladin. **
Pursuit of Justice spec with Sacred Cleansing: http://wowtal.com/#k=tfAi4Kb7.aei.paladin.
Eternal Glory spec with Sacred Cleansing: http://wowtal.com/#k=terZRYO_.aei.paladin. **

Those are of course not the only four specs, but they're probably the most common.


**(Note: The second point in Blessed Life and in Enlightened Judgements can move around a lot - to Improved Judgements 1/2 or 2/2, to 2/2 Last Word, and more)