Protection: Parry and Diminishing Returns

[Deleted]

Aye, got lucky on Argaloth early on and got one of my T10s there.

The rest two I have just bought with VPs. Quickly comparing our gear, I've put +50 mastery on my boots and the two big mastery pieces that I have are the T10 chest and Dragonbone Warhelm. If you want mastery, definitely go for those, especially the helm. Daybreaker Helm has more avoidance but the Warhelm has more mastery on it. A couple of other pieces are different but these two make up for the bulk of the difference between our mastery gear.

---------- Post added 2011-02-16 at 03:36 PM ----------

are you using a heavy mastery build like the mastery gloves from council and the t10 dps legs or something? that may explain the extreme mastery value, but otherwise. phew. waiting for your armory to update.^^

Nope, nothing like that, just the T10 chest and helm I mentioned

I still actually have stamina gems, remnants from my early gear setup, which I've been converting to mastery stones as my gear has improved. One or two more pieces and I can safely convert the last ones, without having my HP drop too low.

[Deleted]

Guys, T10 is more than a year old. If you wear Cataclysm gear instead I'm sure you'll see an increase of avoidance.

[Mammoth]

Guys, T10 is more than a year old. If you wear Cataclysm gear instead I'm sure you'll see an increase of avoidance.

My god! They should have put up a blue post when T11 was released. I feel so stupid... Bye bye Blood Rage's absorb buff.

[xebtria]

Guys, T10 is more than a year old. If you wear Cataclysm gear instead I'm sure you'll see an increase of avoidance.

holy shit batman. must be the spirit of the typo demon...

;-)

[ArthurK]

Don't forget that your shield block ability increases your chance to block by 25% for 10 sec, so you do reach unhitable now, just not 100% of the time. And all your extra over 102.4 gets funneled into crit block.

[xebtria]

not that I've already stated this and I've already stated that the soft-cap for unhittable is not worth mentioning. if at all, then the hardcap unhittable is something to aim for. and that's passive 102.4%.

[Deleted]

Guys, T10 is more than a year old. If you wear Cataclysm gear instead I'm sure you'll see an increase of avoidance.

I blame xebtria. He confused me

[Kolmagorov]

I'm the cat who came up with the mentioned graph.

When I first saw the Hold the Line talent, I assumed that parry was MUCH more valuable than dodge, and ended up with a parry:dodge ratio of around 3. Ironically, my expected damage taken with that gearing was actually higher than if I had kept dodge and parry equal. After doing the math, I now believe the more correct intuition is that parry and dodge are nearly equal, with the talent giving parry a slight boost.

After talking to some other theorycrafters, we are all getting very similar numbers for the optimal parry:dodge ratio, so I've become more confident in my conclusions. Here's a couple things to keep in mind.

1) When deriving the above graph, I assumed a relatively slow source of physical damage: 4 times per 10 seconds. On a fight with a frenzied boss, or when multiple enemies are tanked, it takes less parry to achieve the same Hold the Line uptime, so the best parry:dodge ratio in that situation would be even closer to 1.

2) Iyona is correct that my graph speaks in terms of RATINGS, not PERCENTAGES. The ratings -> percentage formula is not linear, so the optimal RATING ratio will in general not be equal to the optimal PERCENTAGE ratio.

3) Diminishing returns begin immediately, and become steeper as you gain more of that stat. Here's a graph to illustrate, but the forum lords still suspect I may be a robot, so you'll have to manually enter the link:

fooplot.com/index.php?&type0=0&type1=0&type2=0&type3=0&type4=0&y0=%280.01523660%2B0.9560/x%29%5E%28-1%29&y1=&y2=&y3=&y4=&r0=&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=&px0=&px1=&px2=&px3=&px4=&py0=&py1=&py2=&py3=&py4= &smin0=0&smin1=0&smin2=0&smin3=0&smin4=0&smax0=2pi&smax1=2pi&smax2=2pi&smax3=2pi&smax4=2pi &thetamin0=0&thetamin1=0&thetamin2=0&thetamin3=0&thetamin4=0&thetamax0=2pi&thetamax1=2pi&t hetamax2=2pi&thetamax3=2pi&thetamax4=2pi&ipw=0&ixmin=-5&ixmax=5&iymin=-3&iymax=3&igx=10&igy=10&igl=1&igs=0&iax=1&ila=1&xmin=-12.155390346082498&xmax=162.83800196230396&ymin=-11.518758154588863&ymax=91.61312429689961

Sorry that the link is so messy. Here's how to read it: The X-axis shows the percentage of parry you would gain from gear/gems/enchants BEFORE diminishing returns. The Y-Axis shows how much you actually gain AFTER diminishing returns.

[xebtria]

your armory got updated, yay!
and you have 87,07, so it's not really 91,33.

since both chardev and my armory are talking about unbuffed values, we should do this with you aswell, don't we?

it sounds more realistic now. i think since buffs add 4,3% to your combined avoidance, a 372 setup with buffs at about 95% then sounds reasonable. but I really doubt xav's 99%, since he is in armory at 89,11 right now. it sounds way more realistic.

[Deleted]

Did you account for the buffs I mentioned?

[xebtria]

you never mentioned any buffs, proove me wrong ;-)

but as I said, you have 87% according battle net, xav has 89, I have... I don't know how much and the BiS setup from chardev has 90,3%. unbuffed. so these look realistic. we add buffs to it, since you say you have 91.33 then, It's pretty save to assume that buffs (which are those btw? kings+battleshout+mastery elixir+mastery food? anything else? procs don't count, just passive ones) add a little over 4%, therefore a BiS setup for the first content with about 95% combined avoidance raid buffed sounds reasonable.

[Deleted]

you never mentioned any buffs, proove me wrong ;-)

Did too!

"once I add mastery food & elixir and enabling battle shout, I get the following numbers..."
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post10465475

But yeah, on Xav's armory, I was only repeating what someone else wrote so could very well be wrong. I hate armory stalking so never verified it. Have to also admit I haven't looked into the hard mode BiS item list yet, simply since it is so irrelevant at this point. Once we begin hard modes, I will though. Rawr is back up to speed on the new mechanics, so it should be able to give a fairly accurate estimate, once all the best avoidance and mastery gear is put together.

I still think we can get pretty close though. As I said, I am still missing a couple of the BiS normal mode pieces, as well as carrying stamina gems that I can, when necessary, convert into avoidance or mastery, plus equalizing dodge & parry, it shouldn't be that far away. So we shall see. At the very least, will be exciting to find out.

Plus when I'm inevitably proven right, I get to say "told ya so.."

[xebtria]

we'll see, we'll see . on the other hand, I highly doubt that any of us sort of "normal" raiders will hit 100% BiS Hardmode gear before the next content patch is out. all the kungens and xavs will, because they are already pretty close, but anyone else is highly doubtable. So my statement "we won't hit unhittable until T12 raids" will inevitably stay true.

sophisticated whining, after all. xD