The Alterac Valley imbalance, now with 7% units of percantage more facts.

[Pawpurr]

"Horde attracts the PVP players" is pretty much the worst logic I've ever heard. That's like saying the races are balanced in Starcraft, but the best players play Terran so that's why they do so well.

[BoonBagel]

Yes, why fix what's broken.

and yet available data shows it to be the most balanced BG in terms of win %...

/facedesk
Since the Horde dominates all other Battlegrounds, there's a sea of reasons why alliance suddenly turn the tables in AV.
AV most balanced? Please. Do some more considerring than just looking at the one BG where it's nearly 50-50

Have you ever thought that maybe there are terrain advantages for Horde in the other BGs? Or that the Alliance just knows how to do AV better? You are merely hypothesizing one possible reason that Could be it I am not denying it but you have to take into account numerous other reasons.

[GoblinSnowman]

Have you ever thought that maybe there are terrain advantages for Horde in the other BGs? Or that the Alliance just knows how to do AV better? You are merely hypothesizing one possible reason that Could be it I am not denying it but you have to take into account numerous other reasons.

What other terrain advantages do you speculate exist in the other battlegrounds? When dealing with statistics, it's a bad idea to just say that a population is just innately "better" or "worse" at something than an identical population. The original poster and I have both offered our positions and opinions on the subject, and have presented a decent amount of evidence as to why we feel that way. Please elaborate further on what you think.

[Leben]

Sorry but the only problem that the OP has with those graphs is that horde doesnt completely dominate ONE of the Battlegrounds? Im really not one to say this (and I often despise those that do), but the phrase "CRY MORE" really does seem quite appropiate here.

[GoblinSnowman]

Sorry but the only problem that the OP has with those graphs is that horde doesnt completely dominate ONE of the Battlegrounds? Im really not one to say this (and I often despise those that do), but the phrase "CRY MORE" really does seem quite appropiate here.

Thank you for contributing to the thread in a positive way! I'm glad to hear your remarks, and hope that others can aspire to the way you ensure this is discussed informatively and intelligently!

[Daerth]

The only reason Blizzard aren't doing anything about it is because of the clear Horde dominance in the rest of the Battlegrounds.

You should've started off with this and then just stopped, cause the rest of your post no matter how good intended is pure QQ and whine about Horde having a harder time in AV and you're saying it as if nobody knew it.

Well, I hate to break it to you but AV favoring Alliance side is one of those secrets everyone and their grandma is aware of and it has been like this since a very long time, it didn't matter as much before since AV was played differently but still. Even then most of the points aside from the bridge choke only matter if you do not employ a rush tactic which is the only tactic that people go for nowadays.

Part of the reason Horde performs so bad in AV is because you're all 'scared' of AV, and there's always been this perception that Alliance always wins AV. Always. It's not true :P Even back in the good 'ol days Horde was capable of winning AV, some of them just can't be arsed doing more than a quick zerg:

In other words, Horde loses AV somewhat intentionally. If they can get the zerg, they will... but prefer a quick match above anything else.

Also as brought up by someone else before me, just get over it - you have how many other BGs that Horde wins more frequently than Alliance? Yeah, I thought so...

[GoblinSnowman]

Part of the reason Horde performs so bad in AV is because you're all 'scared' of AV, and there's always been this perception that Alliance always wins AV. Always. It's not true :P Even back in the good 'ol days Horde was capable of winning AV, some of them just can't be arsed doing more than a quick zerg:

Please don't attribute statistically relevant data to specific psychological mindsets. It is unlikely that across all of the individuals who were sampled, they were all "scared" of Alterac Valley and were unable to function because of this. I claim that there is no substantial difference between the average player of World of Warcraft, regardless of faction. That is partly the reason I'm curious to discover why the Horde seem more likely to win in other battlegrounds.

[Oogras]

How is this about epeens? This is about an imbalance of a broken battleground. How about add your suggestions instead of saying useless and unrelated things? And dont start about horde fanboy etc, i play both factions....

Meaning about half the horde that are wanting AV to change are using the excuse that they win every other BG more then alliance when guess what?? its only by about 4%. Also people dont even take into account what battlegroup some people are. So in some people's cases the Alliance could be winning alot more bgs there then horde and yet most horde look at the statistics that were put up and think that their tops.

[RyanRetnolds]

Kid A and Kid B are in A soap-box derby raceoff:

Kid A constructs his car out of his father's Honda, and adds a Spongebob bumper sticker for flare.
Kid B constructs his car out of pots and pans.

In Race 1, 2, 3, and 4 (all differently shaped tracks), Kid A wins 90% or more of the games (no surprises here).
In Race 5, Kid A and Kid B have a roughly 1:1 win-rate.

The judges conclude Race track 5 is the most balanced, seeing as how it has the closest win-loss ratio between the two young lads. However, the onlookers cry out that Race 5 is clearly imbalanced, seeing as how Kid B even had a shot at winning. Previously, Kid A won nearly every game due to having access to an automoblie, while Kid B did somersaults across his race track.

Which track was fair? The first 4 in which the superior player won every game, or Race 5 where the Kid using a car made of silverware wins?

I might be wrong, but I believe Race 5 might be a bit unbalanced.

[fizikz]

And the illusion of imbalance persists to this day. Rarely have I met competent Horde who knew exactly where to choke and completely stop the Alliance.

Here's a tip: It's on your side of the map, and it's a narrow pass near a graveyard.
Learn to use it and abuse it, because it's the best choke and smallest point on the map.

the bridge? oh wait a sec......

---------- Post added 2011-02-22 at 10:58 PM ----------

Kid A and Kid B are in A soap-box derby raceoff:

Kid A constructs his car out of his father's Honda, and adds a Spongebob bumper sticker for flare.
Kid B constructs his car out of pots and pans.

In Race 1, 2, 3, and 4 (all differently shaped tracks), Kid A wins 90% or more of the games.
In Race 5, Kid A and Kid B have a roughly 1:1 win-rate.

The judges conclude Race track 5 is the most balanced, seeing as how it has the closest win-loss ratio between the two young lads. However, the onlookers cry out that Race 5 is clearly imbalanced, seeing as how Kid B even had a shot at winning. Previously, Kid A won nearly every game due to having access to an automoblie, while Kid B did somersaults across his race track.

Which track was fair? The first 4 in which the superior player won every game, or Race 5 where the Kid using a car made of silverware wins?

yeah, I was going to point this out too, because people seemed to be missing it by calling it "balanced" because it had the closest win ratio. I didn't really want to bother thinking up a nice analogy like you did though, to get my point across to .... erm...well. you know what I mean.

[GoblinSnowman]

Kid A and Kid B are in A soap-box derby raceoff:

Kid A constructs his car out of his father's Honda, and adds a Spongebob bumper sticker for flare.
Kid B constructs his car out of pots and pans.

In Race 1, 2, 3, and 4 (all differently shaped tracks), Kid A wins 90% or more of the games (no surprises here).
In Race 5, Kid A and Kid B have a roughly 1:1 win-rate.

The judges conclude Race track 5 is the most balanced, seeing as how it has the closest win-loss ratio between the two young lads. However, the onlookers cry out that Race 5 is clearly imbalanced, seeing as how Kid B even had a shot at winning. Previously, Kid A won nearly every game due to having access to an automoblie, while Kid B did somersaults across his race track.

Which track was fair? The first 4 in which the superior player won every game, or Race 5 where the Kid using a car made of silverware wins?

I might be wrong, but I believe Race 5 might be a bit unbalanced.

While this is an exaggerated, it is a decent analogy. There still remain two issues, however. How to fix Race 5 (i.e., Alterac Valley) and more importantly, why is Kid A (the Horde) more successful that Kid B (The Alliance)?

[Jademist]

No it won't. Blizzard just likes your money.

I'd rather have them working on other current things than that one battleground where, yeah its a bit harder to get the upper hand as a Horde player but its not like its impossible to win.

[fizikz]

While this is an exaggerated, it is a decent analogy. There still remain two issues, however. How to fix Race 5 (i.e., Alterac Valley) and more importantly, why is Kid A (the Horde) more successful that Kid B (The Alliance)?

the well-known "fact" (NOTICE THE QUOTES) that horde is the faction you roll when you want to do "serious pvp" attracts people who are well...serious about pvp for one.

racial imbalanced used to be another factor, where horde racials were more pvp racials (wotf, obviously is more pvp suited than well.... fear ward, even though they do the same thing, essentially) I think racials are pretty evenly balanced now with the recent alliance racial buffs.

[Ralamus]

guess your OP racials don't effect AV as much

[Lawlwut]

ITT: People complaining about minor imbalances (Yes, they are minor. You can talk about how 1337sauce you are all day long, but if it was true, your win/loss ratio would be higher in the 'even' BGs [especially since they include low levels, many brackets of which the Horde excel at]) in a battleground that has been around for years.

And speaking from someone who's played it as Alliance, the 'choke point' talk is completely correct. Countless times have I seen our offensive stopped utterly at either IBGY, Frostwolf Hold (I think that's the name, anyway), and the narrow pass between IWB and DB. Learn to use it instead of mindlessly zerging.

---------- Post added 2011-02-23 at 04:09 AM ----------

the well-known "fact" (NOTICE THE QUOTES) that horde is the faction you roll when you want to do "serious pvp" attracts people who are well...serious about pvp for one.

racial imbalanced used to be another factor, where horde racials were more pvp racials (wotf, obviously is more pvp suited than well.... fear ward, even though they do the same thing, essentially) I think racials are pretty evenly balanced now with the recent alliance racial buffs.

You can think that all you want...that doesn't make it true, sir.

[Majyqman]

the bridge? oh wait a sec......

---------- Post added 2011-02-22 at 10:58 PM ----------



yeah, I was going to point this out too, because people seemed to be missing it by calling it "balanced" because it had the closest win ratio. I didn't really want to bother thinking up a nice analogy like you did though, to get my point across to .... erm...well. you know what I mean.

That's because you couldn't have come up with a nice analogy like he did... because his wasn't. In fact it was utterly ridiculous.

I give the horde a 10.8% advantage in BG's over alliance, (they should win ~111 BG's for every 100 alliance win). Why? Well, why I give it, is SotA, the perfect mirror, is won 51/46 by horde. Why horde do so (gamer type, racials, larger pool of pvp players, whatever), I do not claim to know. Not 90% / 10%

So on the face of it his analogy is ridiculous to the point of being repugnant.

But see the problem yet? Hint: I've already pointed it out in this thread.

WSG 21.1%
AB 26.1%
AV -2%
EotS 38.1% (!!!)
IoC 21.7%

So, shouldn't the question be not "why do alliance get such a relatively small non player dependent advantage in AV" but instead "why do horde get such a large non player dependent advantage IN ALL THE OTHER BG's"?

[GoblinSnowman]

the well-known "fact" (NOTICE THE QUOTES) that horde is the faction you roll when you want to do "serious pvp" attracts people who are well...serious about pvp for one.

racial imbalanced used to be another factor, where horde racials were more pvp racials (wotf, obviously is more pvp suited than well.... fear ward, even though they do the same thing, essentially) I think racials are pretty evenly balanced now with the recent alliance racial buffs.

This is a conclusion I have heard as well. Another theory I've heard is that due to raw population imbalance (the Horde having a substantially higher amount of players than the Alliance), the Horde more readily fills up each battleground and has, on average, more players in each battle than the Alliance. I personally lean toward the latter, but I lack any way of confirming any theory right now.

[Auro]

The OP hit the nail on the head. I have toons on both sides, and if you play AV on both sides... it very quickly becomes obvious how biased it is towards ally.

You forgot to add... Ally are sheltered from teh archers because they LoS then while going through that hut and then are under the archers while going through the "gate" into the final part of the base between the towers. You can literally run in and not even think twice about the archers as ally.

As horde, you really really get raped crossing the bridge, and its actually impossible to do alone unless you are in stealth.

Ally have it so easy, someone can run right through our whole base, solo the guards and take a GY, all while being any FoTM dps class. At the ally base you'll get destroyed by the archers long before you even make it to the GY.

The main downside for the ally is the bridge. They never seem to realize theres an easier way out to the back of the base no across the bridge that will help get you onto O faster.

Another difficult thing for ally used to be galvs WW - he could easily kill people without heals, though I havent bothered with galv on my ally toons in a long time since horde are always trying to wipe the alliance team.

[Herrenos]

Arathi Basin favors horde with a shorter path to blacksmith.

Twin Peaks favors horde... water on their base vs. none on alliance side - slows one path in AND out.

Battle for Gilneas favors horde, with two viable paths to waterworks instead of one and hill-camping more easily accessible from mine.

Alterac Valley favors alliance, with the bridge and the bunker/tower difference.

That's 3 vs. 1.

[Adon]

So here are some of my observations.

Horde:
Typically protect Galv then turtle at IBGY. Good strat.
Often only send 1-5 people north to cap towers. These unprotected players are easy targets.

Alliance:
Skip protecting Balinda, then get murdered at Galv or skip it entirely to be aoe'd down while still mounted as passing by IBGY. =(
Most rush south to cap towers, then afk. Horde easily back cap around IB because of lack of defending allies.
The bridge is a huge choke point at the late part of the game as horde pushes the alliance back, normally results win/loss by reinforcements.

Both sides normally start with <40 players so the team with more, usually has a little bit of an advantage. Everyone complaining of where the starting point for horde is... try watching when shit gets capped.. they are close. (Horde used to be WAY closer... quit crying) The alliance bridge is dandy... horde can knock people off too btw. Maybe horde should try to turtle with all the NPCs guarding their base?

Either way, this bg is very very balanced. The deciding factor is normally who controls the mines the longest, who has smarter players, or some elites who can kill 2-3 in a tower and recap it by themselves. The team with more of those players will win. Too many times I've seen 15 ranged focusing a warrior that has just as many healers on him during a turtle.