destro pve trinkets

[Doomcloud]

In Full BiS (372 ilvl), bell is reforged to haste rather than hit to reach the haste threshold. Full BiS is not hit capped.

Theoretical BiS. In reality hit is far far better than what it sims at, probably even above intellect. Having an immolate get resisted, hitting conflag and nothing happens and sitting there with multiple seconds of completely gone dps isn't something that happens in the sim because it has perfect reflexes and plays perfectly. It is pretty easy to get haste/hit in full 372, especially if you are goblin, not to mention it is worth dropping over a 100 int to get to the haste threshold if you have to, so worst case all you really have to do is stop ignoring socket bonuses, or use the 65 haste to bracers enchant(which is better than going to +40 gems obv) Not to mention you can pair chogall gloves with tier helm instead of using sinestra helm and the terribad tier gloves and gain even more towards reaching the haste threshold. The three items that are really hard on the hit/haste are the heroic tier gloves, finkle's boots, and using a nonstump trinket (especially if that trinket is HMirror) it takes pretty much complete BiS to make up for all 3 but most with access to all that loot should be able to make up for two, especially goblins.

[Jenerena]

Doomcloud - simcraft knows this; of course this is going to happen in 10000 iterations. For that iteration hit will probably scale higher. But as an average over 10000 fights (which I prefer to trust) hit is still not as good as intellect. It doesn't play perfectly because it reflects on its stats. Otherwise what does the scale factor for hit tell us? If it played perfectly, there wouldn't be a hit scale factor, because if you took away 300 hit (which is how it is scaled) it would still play perfectly so you lose nothing...wrong.

[Jmickey]

Theoretical BiS.

It's not theoretical. It actual.

In reality hit is far far better than what it sims at, probably even above intellect. Having an immolate get resisted, hitting conflag and nothing happens and sitting there with multiple seconds of completely gone dps isn't something that happens in the sim because it has perfect reflexes and plays perfectly. It is pretty easy to get haste/hit in full 372, especially if you are goblin, not to mention it is worth dropping over a 100 int to get to the haste threshold if you have to, so worst case all you really have to do is stop ignoring socket bonuses, or use the 65 haste to bracers enchant(which is better than going to +40 gems obv) Not to mention you can pair chogall gloves with tier helm instead of using sinestra helm and the terribad tier gloves and gain even more towards reaching the haste threshold. The three items that are really hard on the hit/haste are the heroic tier gloves, finkle's boots, and using a nonstump trinket (especially if that trinket is HMirror) it takes pretty much complete BiS to make up for all 3 but most with access to all that loot should be able to make up for two, especially goblins.

The hit debate has been done to death on these forums, I'm not going to start up that debate again, but you should avoid voicing your personal opinions as fact when they are wrong.

The Sinestra helm is a gain of 56 int, it would be plain silly not to consider it BiS. The BiS profile I have detailed on EJ has a higher amount of Int and reaches the haste threshold for only a little hit, it will be an ACTUAL dps increase over alternative setups.

[nocturnus]

In Full BiS (372 ilvl), bell is reforged to haste rather than hit to reach the haste threshold. Full BiS is not hit capped.

This might be a recent change, or I simply overlooked it the first time over. I also see the lay-out of the site changed quite a bit since I last checked. Nevertheless, hit is a more valuable stat than haste. Reaching the plateau is apparently bottle-neck in this case.

Remember that simcrafted BiS lists constantly change. Whatever the parse outcome is can deviate quite a bit from practice. No Jmickey, simcraft isn't practical (I'm guessing that's what you meant with 'atcual') It's theoretical.

[Jmickey]

This might be a recent change, or I simply overlooked it the first time over. I also see the lay-out of the site changed quite a bit since I last checked. Nevertheless, hit is a more valuable stat than haste. Reaching the plateau is apparently bottle-neck in this case.

Remember that simcrafted BiS lists constantly change. Whatever the parse outcome is can deviate quite a bit from practice. No Jmickey, simcraft isn't practical (I'm guessing that's what you meant with 'atcual') It's theoretical.

Reaching a haste threshold is the only time that haste is values higher than hit, and even Int.

That wasn't quite what I meant by actual. Simcraft overall DPS numbers are based of unrealistic situations, however, the stat weights it provides are still accurate to the average player. Based on the stat weights presented the current BiS list will always net a higher DPS output than alternative setups, despite it not being hit capped. Players skill/latency/movement doesn't stop conflag hitting harder after you hit a haste threshold, or when your gain more int.

[Doomcloud]

It's not theoretical. It actual.



The hit debate has been done to death on these forums, I'm not going to start up that debate again, but you should avoid voicing your personal opinions as fact when they are wrong.

The Sinestra helm is a gain of 56 int, it would be plain silly not to consider it BiS. The BiS profile I have detailed on EJ has a higher amount of Int and reaches the haste threshold for only a little hit, it will be an ACTUAL dps increase over alternative setups.

Fact: Simcraft plays better than any real player could play
Fact: Real players who have their immolate resisted don't immediately recast it on the next gcd, and only when they are really observant/lucky would get it within 2 gcd.
Fact: Real players will try and conflag a target with no immolate on it.
Fact: This is a monsterous dps loss that gets extended significantly the longer it goes unnoticed.
Fact: Not a single one of the 10000 iterations covers this scenario

There is no opinion there, hit is definitely more valuable in real life than it is in simcraft, maybe it is a stretch to say it is possibly better than int, but one would have to be crazy to say hit isn't better in reality than in sims.

Doomcloud - simcraft knows this; of course this is going to happen in 10000 iterations. For that iteration hit will probably scale higher. But as an average over 10000 fights (which I prefer to trust) hit is still not as good as intellect. It doesn't play perfectly because it reflects on its stats. Otherwise what does the scale factor for hit tell us? If it played perfectly, there wouldn't be a hit scale factor, because if you took away 300 hit (which is how it is scaled) it would still play perfectly so you lose nothing...wrong.

What in the world are you talking about, perfect play means always casting the right ability at the right time, it isn't going to prevent spells from being missed, it just means.. DoT got resisted, you throw that sucker right back up again, it minimizes the dps loss caused by a resist to an unreasonable extent.

[Jmickey]

Fact: You need to watch your DoT timer better. There are also plenty of addons that alert you by sound/other methods when your spell misses.
Fact: This still doesn't explain how the 56 int gained from the Sinestra Helm could not be considered BiS.

Up until recently I was not hit capped, I never had the issue you refer to. I play with 300ms avg and was still able to react when my Immolate missed.

Also, slow reaction times can be modeled by Simcraft.

However, as I said before, I will not be taking part in any further debate regarding hit, neither of us is likely to change our opinions based on what anyone else says. Your more than welcome to play the game any way you want, and in gear you want to

[Agallochh]

I'll still roll with my 15% hit and do 1-2k more dps than the other destro lock with 17% hit.

[helheim]

well basically since i was simply referring to 359 trinkets when i started this mess, i'm going to ignore best in slot for now as i'm not yet onto hard modes. in full 359 is it better to roll with stump/dmc or mirror/dmc?

[nocturnus]

however, the stat weights it provides are still accurate to the average player. Based on the stat weights presented the current BiS list will always net a higher DPS output than alternative setups, despite it not being hit capped. Players skill/latency/movement doesn't stop conflag hitting harder after you hit a haste threshold, or when your gain more int.

This is 100% accurate. Thanks for clarifying J.

What doomcloud means, is that after an immolate miss, actual players often already queued up another spell, therefore, in practice, immolate isn't recasted the next gcd.

Doomcloud, in general, after 15% the misses are so sporadig, that whatever miss followed by human recuperation, is worth it. Yes, the dps gained by the extra int and immolate tick is that much. This is what simcraft is good for. Stat weights and determining ideal cirucumstances. It's up to the player to put everything into perspective and balance what is feasible in practice and what isn't.

For those of you who are confused at the moment: Check my armory link. For me, it's not a dps gain to reforge to haste, because ultimately it will not result in reaching the plateau phase (7th immolate tick). In my case, reforging to hit, until cap, is an obvious dps gain.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

I'll still roll with my 15% hit and do 1-2k more dps than the other destro lock with 17% hit.

This, says absolutely nothing.

[Doomcloud]

I never said the Sinestra helm wasn't BiS, I am just saying it isn't the upgrade it should have been because it forces you to use an inferior item in another slot.

That being said, making a statement like "the current BiS list will always net a higher DPS output than alternative setups" is ludicrous, there will always be alternate gear sets superior for certain circumstances, only one fight is simmed, a long patchwerk, of which there is none in the tier of raiding... For example, it would almost certainly be better dps to use heroic heart of ignacious on a fight with a vulnerability phase because all of the other trinkets are procs and likely to be on cooldown when the boss becomes vulnerable, or on a fight with heavy aoeing scale factors will change, or hit being less valuable on a fight with adds that are not level 88. There are many many situations where that set won't be the best.

You treat simulationcraft like it is this perfect bastion of telling us exactly what will happen, when in reality all it is, telling us what will happen in one circumstance, with perfect play, with a specified gearset and rotation. AND that is only if everything is modeled correctly, which is quite likely to not be the case. For example, succubus crit problem last patch, and chaos bolt not being able to be resisted at the moment. No way of telling what other errors are there.

[Seezer]

Fact: Simcraft plays better than any real player could play
Fact: Real players who have their immolate resisted don't immediately recast it on the next gcd, and only when they are really observant/lucky would get it within 2 gcd.
Fact: Real players will try and conflag a target with no immolate on it.
Fact: This is a monsterous dps loss that gets extended significantly the longer it goes unnoticed.
Fact: Not a single one of the 10000 iterations covers this scenario

There is no opinion there, hit is definitely more valuable in real life than it is in simcraft, maybe it is a stretch to say it is possibly better than int, but one would have to be crazy to say hit isn't better in reality than in sims.



What in the world are you talking about, perfect play means always casting the right ability at the right time, it isn't going to prevent spells from being missed, it just means.. DoT got resisted, you throw that sucker right back up again, it minimizes the dps loss caused by a resist to an unreasonable extent.

Going for conflag after a missed immolate gives you two ques. One, you won't have a timer for immolate, and two conflag isn't lit.

[SteelerD24]

For those of you who are confused at the moment: Check my armory link. For me, it's not a dps gain to reforge to haste, because ultimately it will not result in reaching the plateau phase (7th immolate tick). In my case, reforging to hit, until cap, is an obvious dps gain.

This is the correct answer to the original question, Which is a guy in worse gear then BiS. Its really as Jmickey said on his elitist jerks guide, The stats you will need more is based on your personal gear set up. For this guy in particular and for the majority of people in lesser gear, hit will probably be more important then haste, So i think Stump of Time will be better for him and for a lot of other warlocks. (btw great guide Jmickey thanks you helped me a lot )

[Deleted]

I have been stacking haste, but I 'm not even close to reaching the 2589 plateau. I can reach about 2100 haste without sacrificing int+hit but still according to Simcraft haste is a MUCH more valuable stat for me in comparison to both crit and mastery.

[tizlol]

Didn't read all the posts cause i'm lazy so sorry if repost, DMV & bell > all, regardless of normal bell or not, fact is you need the hit, and it's superior compared to stump, or even figurine because of the hit.

[Gohzerlock]

no one seems to be mentioning stump is 5sec LESS on proc than bell

[Xenocastra]

The end. Use whatever is best for you and your current amount of hit. And to clear it up, int>everything. Hit>everything except intellect and haste(if you can reach the 2,5k cap, if not then stack hit until you're able to reach it)

[Cluck]

no one seems to be mentioning stump is 5sec LESS on proc than bell

It also has a lower internal cooldown. It's uptime is roughly the same.

[helheim]

The end. Use whatever is best for you and your current amount of hit. And to clear it up, int>everything. Hit>everything except intellect and haste(if you can reach the 2,5k cap, if not then stack hit until you're able to reach it)

not really the end as this wasn't even remotely an answer to my question.

i have stated multiple times, 359 ilvl trinkets. this has nothing to do with BiS as i have done a little looking and not even half of the top 150 warlocks (us) on wowprogress are in BiS gear.

simcraft is a great tool and all, but seriously you guys need to stop using it as a crutch. it uses 0 latency, perfect timing on dot refreshing and all that on a patchwerk fight. math is great, but not a single one of you is capable of putting out those results emulated in simcraft.

359 ilvl trinkets for destro. dmc: volcano is a given. between the other 3, stump - bell - mirror, which is best and WHY?

/annoyed

[gherkin]

Worst case scenario as Destruction - you queue up an immolate refresh and it misses while you are casting a Chaos Bolt or Incinerate.
Does not apply to any other situation since immolate should still have .5s remaining on it you can still get that conflag off, or the spell you are casting is not modified by Immolate.

Therefore, the fix is simply to cast something else after an immolate refresh if you're concerned, such as rotating in Netherward, or Soul Fire.

I'm at 15% hit as Demonology and my worst case scenario is missing Hand of Gul'dan or Shadowflame, and even then my dps is still within 500-1000 dps of the Destruction locks (minus Havoc of course)

---------- Post added 2011-03-02 at 10:12 AM ----------

Helheim - several people answered this question already. You're not reading it.

And Simcraft doesn't use 0 latency, perfect timing, etc. That's a misconception. Software can get upgrades, and in this case they are substantial.

Straight from the help files:
Latency: During simulation we do not attempt to model the actual latency in all internet traffic, but rather how that latency manifests itself in terms of the inevitable gaps between player actions. Rigorous testing has shown that these gaps differ greatly depending upon whether the preceding action has a cast-time (enabling queueing), is instant-cast (triggering the GCD), or is channeled (requiring extra care not to clip the last tick). SimulationCraft uses random values for these gaps, whose range is centered on user-supplied values.

Vary Length: In order to smooth out the effects of very powerful procs and/or abilities one can tell the simulator to vary the fight length. The sim will perform an even distribution of fight lengths from length-variance to length+variance.

Fight Style: One of the most common criticisms of theorycrafting tools is that they only model tank-n-spank fights in which the player gets to stand perfectly still just hitting keys/buttons. SimulationCraft supports a wide array of raid events including movement, stuns, splash damage, target (in)vulnerability, etc. The Helter Skelter option throws in an interesting mix of these random events so that the user may see how badly DPS suffers under adverse conditions.