Blizzard creativity when it comes to WoW and Raids

[Asanodur]

What annoys me really, is that I did raid those instances at lvl 60, and now I shall run them again.

The total overuse of heroics dungeons is bad enough, "having to" run each place like 10times to get all the gear and rep you need. Remember WotLK, HOW many times exactly did you run all the places to get the emblems and stuff, for the gear, to be able to raid? Sucks.

And now even the first couple of runs will be dead boring, cause heck, the places have been in game for like 4 years.

Considering the "bonus content idea":

Ye great, but tbh, they reused so much stuff right now (remember a deadly boring naxxramas), I cant see where it ends...

Because:

Next expansion 1st raid: Arthas is reborn, kicks Bolvar from the throne, rides on Illidan's back, and when you kill both the last words from a dying Illidan will be "Ill be back!"
2nd raid: Illidan has shaken off his "new" master, 2 phase fight: 1st one he rides on Ashes of Alar, cause heck, he wrenched that from Kael thas Sunstrider. The 2nd phase he rides Kael thas Sunstrider's chicken, main ability is throwing Kael'thas hearts at the raid screaming "I got plenty of those".
3rd and final raid: Onyxia - no comments

So where does the reusing end? Where is the lore?

[microtonal]

This is NOT a qq thread.

If you have to start your post with "this is not a QQ thread", then pretty much by definition, it's a QQ thread.

Sort of like how the phrase "I'm not racist, but..." is always followed by a racist comment.

[G l o w y r m]

Three hundred years ago, he was summoned to fight in the dwarven civil war known as the War of the Three Hammers. This reckless act sundered the Redridge Mountains and created Blackrock Spire. Now, in a greatly weakened state, he lies at the bottom of that volcano on Azeroth, striving to find a way home.

If you all have seen his model, he has legs.

Rag is at full power now as opposed to his weakened state in Molten Core, hence the legs. The Firelands is in the Elemental Plane so it's his real domain. I think it's a nifty update myself. Can't wait to see it in action. The legs DO seem a bit...scrawny, but that could very likely change.

On the topic of repackaging old content. I fully believe they do it because they think we will enjoy revisiting places of our past with some new twists. It's a nostalgia thing, and MMO players tend to be hugely nostalgic. As long as that doesn't get in the way of new content, there's no problem.

So where does the reusing end? Where is the lore?

This game has a story and it is continuing that story. Stories have recurring characters. It makes sense that we see Ragnaros (and any other older content) again seeing how all we did was banish him in Molten Core. There has been and usually is new lore in every thing they have brought back, and I very much look forward to seeing what those Trolls are up to (and Hakkar?!). It makes sense to see things a few times through the life time of the game when you really think about it in terms of a story.

[Keosen]

You opinion doesn't count, community constantly whining about how good old content was and that they want to see old raid/dungeobs revive Blizz do that and the community whines for bringing them back.

That''s the reason why Blizz doesn't give a fuck of what you think and i'm 100% ok with it.

[Mammoth]

A 40man raid + scaling, is not going to be a balanced 5man heroic. You can be that they've been working hard on ZG and ZA. Whilst the boss mechanics are hopefully the same, the actual effort taken will be equal to that of creating a new dungeon.

It seems a shame that Blizz are being judged before they've even presented the work.

---------- Post added 2011-02-25 at 09:58 AM ----------

Were going to logically assume that:
1) SFK and Deadmines were the exact same map
2) Although new bosses, Same boring map

The maps aren't boring though. They are some pretty good maps.

[Reinhard]

So where does the reusing end? Where is the lore?

You mean apart from all that brought by Cataclysm when they rebuilded Azeroth ?
DM and SFK are bringing new lore to old place.
They are applying the same method to dungeons, ZG et ZA will be different because it's what happens there years after we butchered the place.
This is not Naxx again.

For characters coming back, Ragnaros makes sense (he was never killed just sent back to the Fireland, like Garr and Geddon), Nefarian is bad (we severed his head and put it on a pike) and Onyxia is a trainwreck (seriously three times ?!).
Hakkar would make sense too, he is a god, we only destroyed a mortal shell.

[Trifande]

First off. They brought back Nefarion and Onyxia for a very logical reason. They're Deathwing's friggin KIDS! DO you think Deathwing was going to come back, go "oh snap my kids iz dead, lol oh well"? No. He may hate humanity, but he cares (in his own twisted way) for his children. So, he brought one back to life and that one, in turn, brought back the other. It's completely logical from the perspective of lore and relations. If you had the power to bring back your offspring, you would do the same.

They're not even the same damn model. They're kinda undead looking. Which makes sense. Since, you know...they were dead. Ragnaros doesn't evne look half as much like he did in Molten Core. Literally. He actually has LEGS! And no Sulfuros. He wasn't summoned "TOO SOON, EXECUTUS!" this time. This is a full power elemental lord. He's gonna eat babies, and he won't just sit there and swing a mace around while he then goe sinto phase two to summon lots of fire elemental adds. He might do a knockback. Oh noes, same mechanic is BAD amirite?

Did you even DO MC at 60? Even at 60, the fight was freakin' boring. He had three or four abilities that were spaced out and could easily be handled if not for the fact that everyone in the game was a raiding moron with two things on their action bars to press in half blues with spirit on them. Even Nef was dull. Wait for a class call and hope it's not you if you're the hunter in the raid. His landing phase was more exciting than the actual encounter.

Blizzard isn't slacking at jack. They've made an original Nefarion fight that actually requires some coordination and paying attention for more than once every 20-30 seconds. They're going to make a Ragnaros fight that requires more than taunting and keeping your back to a wall. They're going to make a ZA and ZG that may very well be new and exciting, on top of the fact that both were very well-designed instance layouts.

Hell, not ONLY do I applaud that BLizzard is giving some stuff to the old-school fanbase, I want MORE! I want a heroic Karazhan! Shade of Aran doing Flame Wreath, Arcane Explosion, AND Blizzard...at the same time! Yeha...Blizzard's not being lazy, you have no idea what lazy even is if you think they are.

QFT, this (wo)man knows what he/she is talking about! At the very least, I concur with the above sentiment wholeheartedly.

[Brett Skullcrack]

I miss TBC where raids were exciting one-off designs like Kara/MH/BT/ZA. Now we get the same generic crap with different textures slapped on.

[Mammoth]

I miss TBC where raids were exciting one-off designs like Kara/MH/BT/ZA. Now we get the same generic crap with different textures slapped on.

Okay, disable your addons and actually look at the world around you, especially in raids. There is a wealth of beauty out there.

[Brett Skullcrack]

Okay, disable your addons and actually look at the world around you, especially in raids. There is a wealth of beauty out there.

lolwut? Disabling addons doesn't suddenly transform the linear series of corridors and boss rooms into Kara. Nor does it suddenly replace the same texture that's being used IN EVERY GODDAMN ROOM AND CORRIDOR into something different. It also doesn't suddenly add detail work like side rooms and corridors that Kara has.

[Zarasthura]

-I'm not on PTR and I haven't seen PTR streams yet-

I don't have much of an opinion for ZG as I wasn't around when it was relevant to raid--just to farm it for the Raptor and Tiger.

But ZA... I'm on the fence about how they are handling ZA as a heroic 5 man. The raid (when it was relevant) was tough to beat the timer, but it was fun (though I never got my hands on the ZA bear). I definitely didn't want a good raid like this to go to waste and I'm sort of glad it was rehashed, but I'm curious about how they'll handle boss mechanics. The four priests' boss mechanics would be pretty simple and uninteresting for today's expectations

-Dragonhawk = oh god get out of fire, kill adds
-Bear = oh god switch tanks when one gets MS, spread out for charge
-Lynx = burn boss in human form, heal up the kill target
-Eagle = stack for lightning

Malacross might be interesting in a pug... CC was necessary for the sub adds, and a paladin was needed for the spell pushback protection. Pugs might not even get what to do when someone gets MC'd.

Zul'jin is the same story; multiple boss mechanics you dont usually see in 5 mans, but things experienced players can handle easily. Though with certain things (the bear magic debuff, the lynx kill target, dragonhawk burn phase) I can forsee frustrating a lot of pug groups.

all in all ZA is indeed a rehash, but its elements aren't quite dead yet to not warrant Naxxramus-like return

[Falarson]

People complaining about returning characters and new storylines don't know shit about writing stories.

[davesurfer]

Here's my take.

I have played since vanilla. I, as a vanilla player, positively LOVE the revamps to old content to make it viable for max levels.
[SNIP]
Quit if you want to over this, but I'll see the rest of you with some sensibility in ZA and ZG. Which will be fun as hell.

Your whole post says exactly what I am thinking.

[G l o w y r m]

lolwut? Disabling addons doesn't suddenly transform the linear series of corridors and boss rooms into Kara. Nor does it suddenly replace the same texture that's being used IN EVERY GODDAMN ROOM AND CORRIDOR into something different. It also doesn't suddenly add detail work like side rooms and corridors that Kara has.

Buildings usually look the same throughout, not sure what you want done about that. ICC had wings, BWD kinda has wings but just really small, Bastion is the only true linear one. Firelands will be outdoors so you will most likely be able to go around wherever you want. Single places tend to look the same. I don't think a few more twists and turns and a few more extra rooms would do much compared to the current layouts.

They are at least trying to not have single massive instances with ALL the bosses in them (ICC, Ulduar) so you can get a change of scenery and atmosphere.

[kharyll]

They promise new encounters. We'll see. I'm not really upset about it - ZA, ZG, they did actually exist in the game and they are no longer viable content, or were removed entirely for being useless (ZG). THey come back as useful instances once again. What's the problem? There is A LOT of content in this game, and in terms of places like ZG and Rag, a lot of today's players have never experienced them as intended. I've been in top 50 US raid guilds before, and from my experience a lot of today's raiders didn't play or didn't raid in classic.

I completely agree with this. I totally want to see how the story evolves. Until very recently, most of the old content is a static picture from the past. Now with an evolving storyline and events, all the players can feel that they are a part of a living and breathing world.

There is one problem though. If the world consisted of no more than our neighborhood where you know everyone and everything inside out, it wouldn't intrigue you anymore. What makes the world interesting is its size. No matter how much you live, there will be places, people, cultures, mechanisms you couldn't explore, let alone understand.

in WoW the world FINALLY started to breath and evolve with Cataclysm instead of expanding in minimal increments. To make the WORLD of warcraft more interesting and intriguing, there should be places that are very tough to explore. It may require a loooong travel time, detachment from capitals SW or Org or some crazy or special gear requirement.

[The Big Ape]

Blizz has been sympathetic to these folks....

anxiously awaiting The Rotten Core, lvl 90 40 mans!
but oh, wait, Rag's been recycled already...
XD

but on a serious note... kinda split on this...
yea, would be nice to see different bosses... but... heck... it's still fun for me.

[launcelott]

I have to disagree. From what I have ran of ZG it has changed A LOT since the vanilla version. There is a so much more added to it and a lot of fun gauntlets and mini bosses to keep you entertained. I have an entire post about the High Priest Venoxis encounter here and on youtube that you can read/watch just shows you that they recycled but really added a lot to refresh the entire dungeon. I love what they have done with DM and SFk and I love what I see in the PTR so far except of course the nerf to Word of Glory but whos complaining haha.

[Agallochh]

I have a few concerns for the laziness of Blizzard at the moment.

This is NOT a qq thread. I just want to express my interest on blizzard's creativity

Most QQ threads claim to not be QQ threads. This is no different.

Now Lets get with the basics that yes they did design a whole new expansions with new models and such. They brought back 2 dungeons, SFK and Deadmines (Vancleef... not so much anymore) They did design a few other new dungeons but why did they have to just revamp 2?
3 New raids are fun yes, But this new Firelands raid that we are expecting in patch 4.1 has ragnaros in it. If you all have seen his model, he has legs.

SFK and Deadmines were level 17 dungeons. The level 17 dungeons are much different than the 85 heroic counterparts. Mechanics, trash, etc are all different. Even the trash mobs have different spells. We know nothing about the 4.1 Ragnaros encounter. However, i'm fairly certain the mechanics will be much different than the MC original. Honestly, if you think about it lore-wise, all we did was banish Ragnaros into the elemental plateau, we never killed him. It's about time someone powerful enough resurrected him.

2 new 5man dungeons. Zul'aman and Zul'gurub... Thats where the laziness comes in. Really blizzard. You took away 1 of those raid instances and now your going to bring it back, My .02 cents is that blizzard is not going to be changing much with the place but there are just going to be giving it a new place, buff there healths, add new loot.

I respect your opinion, but you haven't stepped foot into these revamped instances yet. From the videos i've seen surfacing today, ZG is entirely different. Sure, the layout of the dungeon may be the same, but the bosses, mechanics, and everything else are different. That's hardly recycling. For me to actually be mad that they recycled something, all the mechanics would have to be the same and everythings level and health pool would be buffed. They aren't doing that. A+ from me.

I'm all about creativity and so far blizzard has done great, but lately there creativity has been slacking. I see models reused throughout the game in various places that really it shouldnt be.

I agree there could be a little bit more creativity, but I don't think this means they shouldn't bring back old things with new mechanics. That being said, everything you mentioned is obviously how you feel about it, I just wanted to post my stance on the different points you brought up, not trying to dismiss them.

Edit: From what the Blue post said about ZA being more or less the same, that's what I'd be upset about. It sounds like they're just keeping the same bosses just tuned for a 5 man group instead of a 10 man. However, I only ran ZA ~6 times in BC, so at least it isn't something I got burned out on running.

[Respen]

Here's my take.

I have played since vanilla. I, as a vanilla player, positively LOVE the revamps to old content to make it viable for max levels.

The sad part is that most people who complain about "omg they're rehashing content QQQ" probably didn't even do the content when it was viable in the first place. What surprises me most is the "omg it's ony and nef again". Really. It's Nefarion again? All over? Where's my class call, then? Or his fear? Wait, he's not doing either? And I don't need an Onyxia Scale Cloak for the fight? I thought this was just rehashed content? And Onyxia doesn't Deep Breath? Or summon whelps? Where's this rehash content at again?

There's a HUGE difference, people, in "rehashed content" and "returning characters". That's all the Nefarion encounter is, a returning character. That's all the Ragnaros encounter is, a returning character. That's all ZA and ZG are. Returning characters. Hell, heroic Deadmines only had ONE returning character in it in the first place (Cookie). The only real "rehash" of that is the map is the same. Oh noes, Blizzard is running out of ideas! CLEARLY!!!

Jesus, people. You get a great game with fun and exciting encounters, and what do you do. Complain about it. Stop being whiny brats. Go make your own game if you think you can do better. Oh wait. You can't do better. Nobody can.

Quit if you want to over this, but I'll see the rest of you with some sensibility in ZA and ZG. Which will be fun as hell.

This and more of this. Whenever a new expansion comes out the previous raids all get relegated to achievement or mount/legendary farming, so why shouldn't blizzard reuse the frameworks? In essence this gives Blizz more time to work on the mechanics rather than on environments that most people will ignore.

[Dorfie]

ZA and ZG are so different the only thing in common is the name. Who cares about 5 mans any way. And Rag is bad-fucking-ass and fits in with the theme of this expansion perfectly. Al'Akir (wind), Neptulon (water) and Therazane (earth) are all present so Rag can't be missing out can he.