Spellcasters and spell casting. Gestures?

[Dayon]

Friend of mine and I got into an interesting discussion.

If a Warrior lops off a Magi's hand, does that cripple his ability to cast a spell? We would imagine that if the hand was severed in the formation of a spell, it would most definitely halt it. Losing an extremity is a pretty big break in concentration, don't think there's any contesting that.

The question, though, is what might happen to a mage or a warlock who has lost his hands?

[ELYPOP]

I feel as if hands are only a means of directing a spell. The spell itself is spoken, but I guess it can still be directed or channeled with your "stumps". But, if they were amputated mid-spell, that would most likely interrupt it.

[Black Mage]

I have always believe that no matter how much waving of your hands or vibrations you send out of your mouth, the true power or magic is funneled via your mind. Therefore, in my opinion, it matters not if you have lost both hands, or have no arms for that matter, the ability to cast spells is only slightly hindered (as doing those things must surely help in some way, or they would not be done.)

To answer your question, I believe that if a magi's hand was severed mid cast, it would affect him, not because the loss of limb, but the break in concentration.

[The Madgod]

I have always believe that no matter how much waving of your hands or vibrations you send out of your mouth, the true power or magic is funneled via your mind. Therefore, in my opinion, it matters not if you have lost both hands, or have no arms for that matter, the ability to cast spells is only slightly hindered (as doing those things must surely help in some way, or they would not be done.)

To answer your question, I believe that if a magi's hand was severed mid cast, it would affect him, not because the loss of limb, but the break in concentration.

This is how I've always thought of it, too. Words and gestures are ways of concentrating, so that your spell doesn't go from lighting a fireplace to setting the curtains ablaze, but a spellcaster shouldn't need them to actually cast.

A silly way to show it:



sadly, this is the only video of it that I could find, and it's not exactly high-quality :<

[Khorianas]

Well I would think that gesture and vocals can help casting but are not necessary. they enhance a spell, but if the mage is proficient enough he will be able to cast without gestures or incantations. It also depends on the difficulty of a spell. If he spell is your masterpiece, you won't be able to cast it without proper gesture and vocals, but if it is just a simple spell for you mage it will succeed.
Also I would imagine warlocks having an even easier time to cast without hands, since they don't draw their powers from proficiency with the arcane arts but from more available sources of power.

As for the influence on spell casting if you amputate a hand, as Black Mage said, the pain will break the mages concentration and that is what will hinder him most by far.

I would also imagine that if a spellcaster permanently lost a hand he would be used to the condition and adept, through practice so it wouldn't hinder him severely anymore some time after.

[Deleted]

Varian stopped a Dark Iron's spell by loping off his hand. So it would stop the current spell, but I'm not sure as to what would actually happen to the mage's ability to cast further spells.

On the other hand, Ogre-magi could set fire to things with their minds alone, but they just let loose the energies rather than direct them. Thus it's very likely that the gestures are a means of basically telling the spell where to go.

Bottom line: I believe it to be a question of what you're used to, gestures or raw bursts of magic.

[Bordeaux]

I agree with Black Mage. I like to think that the hand gestures/chanting serve to focus the mind while the actual energy is innate and always accesible ( Unless said mage is dead!). Similar to wands and staves which when disarmed don't immediately cripple a spellcaster's ability to work magic.

[Aramore]

I'd be inclined to agree with what's been said above.

From other different story universes it seems that consistently gestures are merely there to either focus the magic or in some cases merely just for the feel of the spell.

Some mages may have initial difficulty with casting spells if they've lost their hands/arms but after they'd become used to it I'm sure they'd return to their old ways of spell casting.

Warlocks I feel are a little trickier. In some cases a Warlock who's lost a hand may not even notice if they are that drunk on power, but if they were the sort of person who is secretly a coward and goes looking for great power to try and feel stronger their abilities may forever be crippled by something like that.

[The Madgod]

Also I would imagine warlocks having an even easier time to cast without hands, since they don't draw their powers from proficiency with the arcane arts but from more available sources of power.

I'd actually disagree here. Magic has different sources (some mages theorize that when they conjur flames, they are drawing them forth from the elemental plane, which would be similar to a warlock siphoning his or her power from the twisting nether or some other source of fel magic), but the proficiency of how you cast is universal for all of the magically-oriented classes. The better you are at casting, the less you need words or gestures to concentrate on the spell. A master warlock and mage alike could cast a basic spell for their respective class with equal ease.

As well, even if I'm wrong in terms of ability, I still think that gestures would help a warlock with being efficient at channeling the energy they get from whatever source of fel magic they use.

Warlocks I feel are a little trickier. In some cases a Warlock who's lost a hand may not even notice if they are that drunk on power, but if they were the sort of person who is secretly a coward and goes looking for great power to try and feel stronger their abilities may forever be crippled by something like that.

I'd also disagree with this, because that sounds more like an issue with confidence, which could cause problems for any magi.

[Khorianas]

I'd actually disagree here. Magic has different sources (some mages theorize that when they conjur flames, they are drawing them forth from the elemental plane, which would be similar to a warlock siphoning his or her power from the twisting nether or some other source of fel magic), but the proficiency of how you cast is universal for all of the magically-oriented classes. The better you are at casting, the less you need words or gestures to concentrate on the spell. A master warlock and mage alike could cast a basic spell for their respective class with equal ease.

If I remember my last reads of the Rise of The Horde and The Lord of the Clans, I'm quite sure the in both books it is mentioned that spell casting as a warlock is the easiest way to obtain results. So of course people who master their crafts can conjure with relative ease, but the beginner difficulty is lower with warlocks summoning. That is why I would assume that outer influences can distract or hinder mages more easily than warlocks. Also i think it has been established that mages draw their powers of the remnants of the Well of Eternity that has been distributed all over Azeroth when it collapsed in The War of the Ancients.

[The Madgod]

If I remember my last reads of the Rise of The Horde and The Lord of the Clans, I'm quite sure the in both books it is mentioned that spell casting as a warlock is the easiest way to obtain results. So of course people who master their crafts can conjure with relative ease, but the beginner difficulty is lower with warlocks summoning. That is why I would assume that outer influences can distract or hinder mages more easily than warlocks. Also i think it has been established that mages draw their powers of the remnants of the Well of Eternity that has been distributed all over Azeroth when it collapsed in The War of the Ancients.

In lord of the clans and rise of the horde, warlock magic is the easier way to get results compared only to shamanism, where you ask the elements to give you the power to cast spells instead of just taking it like a Mage or warlock.

And while what you said about the well is true and known by any Mage in Dalaran (since they tell the story of the kaldorei to all the new apprentices), the debate you read about (and that I referenced) in the last guardian leads me to believe that casters summon the energies to use elemental spells from their respective elemental plane. Since the well was a font of arcane magic (which is the type mages use the most), the ambient magic of Azeroth is only arcane.

[Deleted]

It could be that arcane energy provides some sort of 'vessel' for the energies of fire and frost, as in it's used to open a portal of sorts in order to channel the energy from its native plain into Azeroth.

Still, it looks like a gesture is 'needed' only insofar as it helps the caster focus. After all, Medivh was capable of some interesting things without even moving.

As for warlocks, the original ones who were empowered by the Legion would be pretty much given the powers on a platter. The modern warlocks however enslave demons, so they'd definitely have to trace some sort of protective spells before (or possibly during) they bound a demon to themselves or started throwing fire around or whatever it is that warlocks do.

[Khorianas]

In lord of the clans and rise of the horde, warlock magic is the easier way to get results compared only to shamanism, where you ask the elements to give you the power to cast spells instead of just taking it like a Mage or warlock.

And while what you said about the well is true and known by any Mage in Dalaran (since they tell the story of the kaldorei to all the new apprentices), the debate you read about (and that I referenced) in the last guardian leads me to believe that casters summon the energies to use elemental spells from their respective elemental plane. Since the well was a font of arcane magic (which is the type mages use the most), the ambient magic of Azeroth is only arcane.

Well I would think that the Well's energies can not be attributed to any school of magic at all. I would think the best explanation of the energies would be that it is simply a source of power that can be shaped how the caster wishes, similar to concepts like Mana or the Force if you wish another fictional example, but it tends to get philosophical here.

Still, it looks like a gesture is 'needed' only insofar as it helps the caster focus. After all, Medivh was capable of some interesting things without even moving..

If we assume that all that is needed for a spell is concentration, I would say gestures can be needed if the mage is working at the upper spectrum of his powers. If the mage requires full concentration, he or she will have to use his personal mantra to succeed. And these mantras can in my opinion be the gesture or the incantation. So I would say the importance of the gestures depends on the difficulty of the spell. In case of Medivh, I don'T know what spell you mean exactly but I would assume he does not need a mantra for most of his spells since he just is very powerful.

[The Madgod]

Quoting wowpedia's article on the well of eternity...

There have been two different Wells of Eternity. The glowing, swirling pool known as the First Well of Eternity (usually just called the Well of Eternity) was once a lake containing immense arcane energy. It was originally located on the ancient continent of Kalimdor near the ancient night elven city of Zin-Azshari. The present area where the First Well of Eternity was located became the Maelstrom after the Great Sundering following the War of the Ancients.

The well was definitely a font for arcane magic, but in your defense, arcane magic is probably the most diverse in terms of application. What I say is that pretty much all "casual" (as in not meant for combat) magic, unless it's obviously from another school, is arcane of nature.

[Khorianas]

It is a source of Arcane energy, yes but arcane, if you take the definiton of WoWpedia incorporates all spell schools:

The arcane (a.k.a. arcane magic) is a general term for the various domains of magic in Warcraft lore — used in contrast with divine magic. According to lore, many of the types of magic found as "schools" in World of Warcraft are actually all forms of arcane magic. Unlike in the MMORPG, fire and frost are actually part of the arcane rather than being separate forms of magic. Lore also includes some so-called "shadow" spells as part the arcane as well, as magic practiced by warlocks and necromancers.

So yes the Energy of the well is arcane but in this case that means magic in general, which includes many "schools". Rhonin and Illidan summon Lightning storms from the Well'S energies for example.

[The Madgod]

I see your point, but I still stand behind my belief that there's a difference in how the magic is woven, and that no class really has an advantage/disadvantage over the other in terms of concentration and casting efficiency when two spellcasters are at an equal level of competence. Warlocks and mages have no real difference between them aside from where they get their power and how they use it.

[Khorianas]

Hmm maybe I quoted too much there; I admit that I forgot about the comparison only meant shamanism and fel magics. My objection was solely on your interpretation of the well's powers there. Maybe the comparison of those two magics just wanted to say that fel magics are quicker to work since they don't require dialogue with the elements. I don' remember die dialogues in detail.

My train of thought considering the comparison of arcane magic and fel magic was based on the assumption that fel powers are more readily available than arcane energy. But then again considering the precautions that must be made with fel magics, a good point that Lokann brought up, there won't be a real big difference in efficiency in the end.

[The Madgod]

My problem is that my brain sees fire, frost, and arcane magic as three separate categories, since there is discussion, albeit only a little, concerning how magi "summon" fire magic. Plus, they all have different uses. It's just extreme categorizing.

and I believe it's the other way around, in terms of arcane and fel magic and their avaliability, because of social reasons (arcane's a lot more tolerated than fel), practicality (fel magic can be traced to the twisting nether, whether through demons, demonic artifcats, or crystals storing it, while arcane magic can be tapped through simply being on Azeroth), and the qualities of each (fel magic being a concentrated, corrupted version of arcane magic).

[Deleted]

(fel magic being a concentrated, corrupted version of arcane magic).

That seems to be the keyword. Arcane in itself is corruptive and shows pretty much the same qualities as fel, with the latter achieving its results a lot quicker and more prominently.

But we mustn't just take the RPG stuff as the one and only explanation. I trust we all know how wrong and/or lacking the sourcebooks have proven to be on many points. Fire may be classified as arcane magic there, but since arcane corrupts over time and the Elements (as in some of the oldest sentient quasi-beings in the universe) are not corrupted, not all fire magic has to be arcane in nature. The question is, does the arcane only serve to create a 'tunnel' for the energies of the planes (which would support the TLG explanation), or does it actually ignite a spark that summons the fire itself?

Even though The Last Guardian is rather outdated by current standards, I'd still accept its version as canon. I mean, mages have also been known to summon elementals, right? And the T11 is modelled after Raggy himself.

[Khorianas]

My problem is that my brain sees fire, frost, and arcane magic as three separate categories, since there is discussion, albeit only a little, concerning how magi "summon" fire magic. Plus, they all have different uses. It's just extreme categorizing.

and I believe it's the other way around, in terms of arcane and fel magic and their avaliability, because of social reasons (arcane's a lot more tolerated than fel), practicality (fel magic can be traced to the twisting nether, whether through demons, demonic artifcats, or crystals storing it, while arcane magic can be tapped through simply being on Azeroth), and the qualities of each (fel magic being a concentrated, corrupted version of arcane magic).

My point exactly is that there is no category other than magic energy. Some mages use it to redistribute temperature in their surroundings to summon fire or ice others manifest it in a more pure form like arcane missiles ( Arcane in this case is just a label for Not Divine Magic or Mage's magic, and not a category itself. It is used as category for the not otherwise classifiable magics like teleportation pure energie projectiles etc.) Power source is the same, result is not. it is just that different mages attune to different manifestations of the powers. Fie mages tend to be hot headed arcane mages tent to be scholars etc. that is my picture of it. And I don't like the elemental planes explanation. The elements are sentient in their own domains and would rage if someone could just summon their powers because they feel like it. Also shattering the borders between the planes to summon a fireball just seems of to me.That is why I can't wrap my head around that explanation

That seems to be the keyword. Arcane in itself is corruptive and shows pretty much the same qualities as fel, with the latter achieving its results a lot quicker and more prominently.

But we mustn't just take the RPG stuff as the one and only explanation. I trust we all know how wrong and/or lacking the sourcebooks have proven to be on many points. Fire may be classified as arcane magic there, but since arcane corrupts over time and the Elements (as in some of the oldest sentient quasi-beings in the universe) are not corrupted, not all fire magic has to be arcane in nature. The question is, does the arcane only serve to create a 'tunnel' for the energies of the planes (which would support the TLG explanation), or does it actually ignite a spark that summons the fire itself?

Even though The Last Guardian is rather outdated by current standards, I'd still accept its version as canon. I mean, mages have also been known to summon elementals, right? And the T11 is modelled after Raggy himself.

I would say arcane and fel magic are the same. It is said these energies were given by the Titans, and they corrupt, in a sense that power corrupts. most prominent example of arcane corruption would be the wretched blood elves i would say. So the energies act similar here. It is just that fel magic is given by the fallen Titan so it corrupts faster and more visibly. As to why the Elements are not corrupted; They are the manifestation of entropy in the universe and are made themselves of pure energy as initial part of the creation. So they are made of the primal arcane energy, how could they be corrupted by an excess of what they are made oft? if they are exposed to fel magic however they can be corrupted, as seen for example in Shadowmoon valley.

The summoning Elementals actually is a good point, but mages just summon water Elementals and those belong to Neptulon's plane and he seems to be the most forgiving of the elemetal Lords in my opinion so that is not too far fetched. And summoning is in a way teleportation between the planes, so it should be possible for mages. The only ones to summon the other elements are shamans, who work with another kind of energy.

I think we can discuss pros and cons of each theory or interpretation forever since the available sources are vague at this level of detail