10manHM thread on US R&D forums

[vizzle]

Yes well, one issue could be Sinestra in 10 man. There is really little information out here about this fight in 10 man heroic, and due to so few 10 man guilds raiding "extremely hardcore" compared to 25 man, there are not as many guilds that have seen this fight.

It is quite possible that this fight is more overtuned in 10 man then 25 man, though really, noone here has done this fight in both 10 man and 25 man mode, so noone can tell.

And due to so few guilds reaching her in 10 man, Blizzard may still have unnoticed this and balanced ( if needed ).

Though really, if we compare the top 10 man guilds, vs the "Bottom of the 13/13 25 man guilds", that means, the guilds that are ranked about 50th in 25 man. You can see the 25 man guilds that killed Sinestra AFTER the 10 heroic guilds, were all raiding seriously in the first week, clearing 11/12 and 12/12 during the first week and started heroic modes way before the 10 man guilds.

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ul/CATASTROPHE

Just as an example.

Now, how come, a 25 man guild that spent alot more time, starting raiding earlier, and raided during the holidays and still killed Sinestra about the same time?

This feels wrong to me.

We should be seing "casual" 25 mans killing sinestra by now, the guilds that didn't raid during relase, yet we aren't. Why are we seeing this in 10 man?

---------- Post added 2011-03-13 at 06:02 PM ----------



Our alts only dinged 85 few weeks ago, so the first time we killed Halfus heroic we had barely started raiding. Our tanks were stamina stacking ( alts not knowing how to play their classes ), and were sitting on 150-160k raid buffed.

We had 1 green geared healer and the other two in blue/purple and blue geared dps.

2 tanking was not an option for our alts at that point, so we had to 3 tank it due to lack of gear.

Nowadays few weeks later when we geared up, we can easily 2 tank it, but it wasn't like that in the beginning.

Now this is what I find funny, "10 man requires more dps". Our 25 man main run wiped alot and alot on Halfus HC enrage ( though pre-nerf ).
Yet out alts in 10 man managed to kill halfus with 40 sec left to enrage with blue geared dps

Dunno, must be magic.

Who knows how long those 2 korean guilds raid. Just because they didn't push in the first week or two of Cata doesn't mean they haven't been raiding nonstop then. We don't know how long they raid per week, so trying to call them casual isn't backed up.

It seems the extent of your 10man heroic experience is Halfus.

/golfclap

[Paskgotsheal]

Yes well, one issue could be Sinestra in 10 man. There is really little information out here about this fight in 10 man heroic, and due to so few 10 man guilds raiding "extremely hardcore" compared to 25 man, there are not as many guilds that have seen this fight.

It is quite possible that this fight is more overtuned in 10 man then 25 man, though really, noone here has done this fight in both 10 man and 25 man mode, so noone can tell.

And due to so few guilds reaching her in 10 man, Blizzard may still have unnoticed this and balanced ( if needed ).

Though really, if we compare the top 10 man guilds, vs the "Bottom of the 13/13 25 man guilds", that means, the guilds that are ranked about 50th in 25 man. You can see the 25 man guilds that killed Sinestra AFTER the 10 heroic guilds, were all raiding seriously in the first week, clearing 11/12 and 12/12 during the first week and started heroic modes way before the 10 man guilds.

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ul/CATASTROPHE

Just as an example.

Now, how come, a 25 man guild that spent alot more time, starting raiding earlier, and raided during the holidays and still killed Sinestra about the same time?

This feels wrong to me.

We should be seing "casual" 25 mans killing sinestra by now, the guilds that didn't raid during relase, yet we aren't. Why are we seeing this in 10 man?

---------- Post added 2011-03-13 at 06:02 PM ----------



Our alts only dinged 85 few weeks ago, so the first time we killed Halfus heroic we had barely started raiding. Our tanks were stamina stacking ( alts not knowing how to play their classes ), and were sitting on 150-160k raid buffed.

We had 1 green geared healer and the other two in blue/purple and blue geared dps.

2 tanking was not an option for our alts at that point, so we had to 3 tank it due to lack of gear.

Nowadays few weeks later when we geared up, we can easily 2 tank it, but it wasn't like that in the beginning.

Now this is what I find funny, "10 man requires more dps". Our 25 man main run wiped alot and alot on Halfus HC enrage ( though pre-nerf ).
Yet out alts in 10 man managed to kill halfus with 40 sec left to enrage with blue geared dps

Yes you wiped pre nerf when drakes only gave a 50% damage buff and you're not wiping now post nerf when you get 100% damage buff per add

I wonder why

[Deleted]

The discussion of relative difficulty of 25 to 10 is just a stupid argument. 10 man has had alot of poorly tuned fights that got hot fixed very late (V+T for example). Saying that though I don't really know of any "HARDCORE" 10 man guilds the likes that raid as much as say the top 10 guilds in the world. I am in a guild thats 11/13 HC on 10 sometimes we only raid 3 days. HC Nefarian for example took about 4 hours max and we was the first non-korean guild to kill it, the fight is so simple I wonder what other 10 man guilds are actually doing on this boss.

TLDR This game is not hard on 10 or 25 man.

[Deleted]

Yes you wiped pre nerf when drakes only gave a 50% damage buff and you're not wiping now post nerf when you get 100% damage buff per add

I wonder why

Well, it was well on farm by then in 25 man, so we didn't really have any issues with it.

[Archermit]

I wouldn't really agree with 10 mans being harder then 25, considering the majority of high end raiders are raiding purely 25 man its quite hard to compare them. That post seems to be more a QQ post about the difficulty of hardmodes, no ones forcing people to raid them, there meant to be hard.. hense the name!

you bring up an intersting point, "noone is forcing him to run them" but what if his guild facerolls the bosses on normal? then surely the only progression is to move into HCs. The is the exact reason why there should be a semi-HC mode..maybe the fights are the same as normal but bosses have more HP and hit harder and the moves they do are a lot less forgiving than the currant HCs

[Deleted]

It seems the extent of your 10man heroic experience is Halfus.

/golfclap

No, our alt run is sitting on 5/6 in bwd and 2/4 in bot ( halfus and council ). We don't do Throne of the four winds due to we only play our alts one night a week, and then we only play a few hours, so we don't really have time to "progress", its mostly in and one shot everything.

[Paskgotsheal]

No, our alt run is sitting on 5/6 in bwd and 2/4 in bot ( halfus and council ). We don't do Throne of the four winds due to we only play our alts one night a week, and then we only play a few hours, so we don't really have time to "progress", its mostly in and one shot everything.

Link to your alt and main in the same guild. I find your claims hard to believe if you were still in greens killing magmaw heroic

[Deleted]

Link to your alt and main in the same guild. I find your claims hard to believe if you were still in greens killing magmaw heroic

Ofc not, we got alot more gear then. I was talking about HALFUS heroic. And the only green geared one was one healer. The other ones was mostly blue geared with 1 epic or two. Stop changing the words of what I said. Now we are all fully epic with some 372, and yes, Magmaw heroic is really brutal, in both 10 and 25 man.

And no, I am not the one to give out my name to anyone on the internet, though if you have doubts about my knowledge in these fights, feel free to send a PM and ask me any question about these fights and I will reply you with sufficient information to convince you that I done it. ( Lets not fill this thread with such off topic stuff, so take that in PMs ).

[sicness]

I think you don't understand that a majority of the 25 man guilds don't have a huge flexibility either.

We usually have between 25-28 signs in 25 man, thats not alot to stack the raid in one side. Some 25 man bosses requires 1 tank and some requires 3, nothing different from 10 man here, people need off specs. Some fights requires 5 healers, some requires 8, nothing different here, people need off specs.

Some fights require AoE, some require single target, fine spec demo or destro, spec survival or MM, people should have off specs.

Do not know why 10 mans expect to be able to clear everything without using their off specs, since 25 mans do all the time.

And that you complain that you need hybrids, well, newsflash, so does 25 man. If you don't care about who you invite and just invite random people, thats your fault.

25 man guilds may not have the flexibility but they certainly have an advantage in it due to the fact that they have 25 raiders minimum. With 25 people in a raid that's roughly 25 people with alts with just as good as near as good gear, to make up for fights that have heavy comp requirements, which most top guilds do. Also with 25 people you have close to 20 slots of raiders that you can swap in and out for encounters, by that I mean only the tanks and handful of healers are typically kept in for every fight. Whereas in 10 man you have, if you're lucky, 4-5 spots you can swap people in. That's 4 times as many players you can have sitting on the bench who can come in for the next fight if you want. It's not the fact that guilds do this, it's the fact that they have the luxury of being able to do this. Just because your guild doesn't take full advantage of this doesn't mean 25 man guilds can't, and don't. Most of the top 10 guilds easily have 30+ people who are capable of raiding, 10 man I'd assume at best has 2-3 people on the bench at best, and most likely they're close with the guild rather than being optimal raiders.

The thing you bring up with off specs is completely irrelevant because I was talking about requiring hybrids. In a serious 10 man progression guild 70% of your raid has to be hybrids was my point here, leaving only 3 dps slots at best open for pure dps. Again, it's not that 25 man doesn't need hybrids, it's that they need considerably less of their raid overall to be hybrids in order to succeed.

[sicness]

It also helps that 25mans can have a CD up for every single AoE, while 10mans usually just have to eat the damage naked for the lack of raid-wide CDs. 25mans, without even trying to stack, already usually have several raid-wide CDs.

This is a HUGE advantage. The ability to have 2 disc priests in a 25 man without hindering the raid is a substantial part of why 10 man heroic modes are lagging behind. Luckily they're fixing this a bit with the addition of raid wide cool downs to other classes, but it's a significant factor for progression, especially when the majority of heroic mode fights are practically designed around them.

[Deleted]

After the significantly overtuned encounters were re-balanced (via hotfixes and patches) the "problems" remaining in 10vs25 difficulty are pretty much fundamental ones that can't really be done anything about - mainly that in most cases it's just as easy to have a death in both (assuming equally skilled players in both), but that death is much more punishing on 10man due to losing a larger portion of the raid and being less likely to have a backup for the special task the person might have been taking care of (say, interrupting).

I'll just say that 25mans shouldn't be given any leeway in performance requirements (I'm not gonna say whether they are or not currently) - the whole raid should be expected to play the best they can (just like on 10man), instead of leaving room for a few people to be pretty much carried. If this is not the case, 25mans with a whole raid of amazing players will have an easier time than a 10man raid of amazing players. The "challenge of finding those amazing players" shouldn't be part of the tuning (you could say 10man has just as much of a challenge in squeezing all raidbuffs into their setup), because people who choose to raid 25mans should be expected to have a fully competent team for it.
...On Heroic mode, at least.

edit: first time I see a screenshot of a loot window on 25HC...nine drops from one boss sounded ridiculous, but now I know it looks ridiculous as well x)
http://i52.tinypic.com/2ily9z5.jpg
Yeah, I don't really agree with the loot amount disparity on the two modes, because 25mans already have a slight advantage due to a lesser likelihood of loot going to offspec/being sharded - even if the loot/player ratio was the same. In the current model this is a pretty big contributor to 25mans progressing much faster (I'm not over-estimating the importance of gear, just not underestimating it either).

[Kujja]

The problem that arrises if Blizzard nerfed 10 mans would be that the "perfect" setup to kill each boss would have a much easier time killing it, and in a way make 10 mans too easy, I think Blizzard over-tuned them to counter this problem, so currently the semi-perfect/perfect setups have roughly the same difficultly killing the boss as a 25 man raid would as there aren't really perfect setups in a 25 man raid due to having most of the raid buffs/raid cooldowns required anyway.