[TV] Game of Thrones [No Spoilers]

[Naxere]

He probably sees it as convenient means to an end to clear away what he considers murderer of his wife and shame to entire Lannister family lineage.

This. Tywin gets to eliminate what he considers a stain on the family name. He also gets to show Tommen how to rule properly, something he couldn't do with Joffrey.

[TJ]

I enjoyed this episode, dying to see Oberyn fight the mountain. I also just love seeing Khaleesi's dragons, I don't think her story is that boring as it's showing how she's going from place to place and expanding her army etc.

Stop posting spoilers, seriously.. Oh I've read the books, I'll post spoilers in a thread that says no spoilers and ruin it for other people because I'm so cool.

[Zaelsino]

Jaime raping Cersei? Just wtf. Not only does it go against books but it was also entirely out of character at this point of the storyline.

Made me and my friend go "????????????????" and not in good way

Where was the bittersweet and emotional sort of "last time ever" love when Cersei was overcome by the loss of her child and Jaime still overwhelming feelings for his sister and pity for her.

Right there with you. What a shitty scene.

FWIW, even the director categorizes it as straight up rape.

It was one of my favorite scenes I've ever shot. It's almost like a build from Ordinary People meets a Hitchcock movie, because you're sitting here going "this is so dysfunctional and bizarre." She's a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go "he's kidnapping her only boy," because she's not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like – you read the scene and go "Wait, who's directing this?"

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...l-scene-697733

So pissed. It's completely missing the point of Jaime and Cersei's twisted romance -- the ethics have always been down to the incest and infidelity and whether their love is enough to justify their destructive relationship, there was just no need whatsoever to pepper it with rape. It's just another black mark on a guy who's supposedly trying to redeem himself, and with the subtlety of a car crash.

Really disappointed with that. It followed the best scene in the ep too IMO.

[Deleted]

Right there with you. What a shitty scene.

Agreed. While the scene itself is relatively similar to how it happens in the books, there it's basically Jaime just having returned, not Jaime having been around Cersei for weeks already. There, it's the last dying struggle of the old Jaime.

The series version reeks of arrogance on Jaime's part, which is something that was supposedly burned out of his system during his imprisonment and travels with Brienne. It serves no purpose, all it does is serve as a reminder that whatever Jaime tries to do he'll never be rid of his shitty old self. Which is so off the mark it's ridiculous.

[Wilian]

Agreed. While the scene itself is relatively similar to how it happens in the books, there it's basically Jaime just having returned, not Jaime having been around Cersei for weeks already. There, it's the last dying struggle of the old Jaime.

It was more reluctance than implication for rape in the books. She wasn't really resisting as much (rather at all) as being insecure because of nearby septons and guards

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…” “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her.”
---
“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.

What we had in show.. "STOP STOP STOP STOP NO NO NO" "I DON'T CARE I DON'T CARE I DON'T CARE I DON'T CARE I DON'T CARE I DON'T CARE I DON'T CARE"

Mind boggling

[Deleted]

It was more reluctance than implication for rape in the books. She wasn't really resisting as much (rather at all) as being insecure because of nearby septons and guards

Oh that's true, I messed up. Should re-read the books again. :/

But yeah, it's such a stupid scene, even without that issue (and it's a damn huge one, let me tell you). The transition from old!Jaime to new!Jaime was done faster in the show, so this seems brutally, stupidly out of character.

[s_bushido]

Spat upon for years (for being the Kingslayer). Imprisoned for weeks (months?). Hand cut off. No longer able to do the thing he was good at (fighting). Disowned by his father. Asked to kill his brother by his sister while standing over the body of their son.

And people are upset that he let his frustration get the best of him? Please.

Jaime may not be as evil as his detractors think he is, but he's not exactly white as snow either.

[Easo]

Eh, Wildlings. They will get whats coming to them.

[Azrile]

Are you referring to Ramsay holding Theon captive?

Yeah, when it originally happened, I don´t think the show really filled in who he was (right away).. and then when it did, he was just the bastard son of someone else who wasn´t on the show that much either.

- - - Updated - - -

For the rape scene. I think it was just a little bit of bad editing. It seemed to me that she stopped resisting near the end... they just cut the scene too early. I think if you watch the last 5 seconds, it didn´t seem like rape.

I didn´t think the episode was boring, but I think they used it to reset Jaime and the Hound into being more grey characters again... they were beginning to become too white.

I like the way they are developing the dragon-lady. It is like they have this crazy, meaningless skirmish going on in the capital, then you have an army of good slowly marching from the east and the undead guys slowly coming from the north. It kinda keeps a shadow over the capital storyline.

[Velaniz]

Spat upon for years (for being the Kingslayer). Imprisoned for weeks (months?). Hand cut off. No longer able to do the thing he was good at (fighting). Disowned by his father. Asked to kill his brother by his sister while standing over the body of their son.

And people are upset that he let his frustration get the best of him? Please.

Jaime may not be as evil as his detractors think he is, but he's not exactly white as snow either.

Yeah. I'll have to agree people are over-reacting. In a show where people are gutted regularly for no good reason, to take issue with a rape (of fucking Cersei, no less. Go back and watch that scene in season 1 of her ordering Lady's death) seems quite silly. It was also quite clear it was passion-driven, rather than malice-driven, considering Jaime's words immediately preceding it, when he reacted to how repulsed Cersei was by his fake hand. "Why did the Gods make me in love with such a hateful woman?"

It's part comeuppance for her, and part shock value. I mean, an incest twin rape with your incest-born son's corpse right there, right after your father left the scene giving your other incest-born son a sex-talk. It's just too GOT-esque.

I'd also withhold on criticizing the deviation from the books until some more episodes. It could very well be that the show intends to go somewhere with this.

[Wilian]

Issue is not with the rape, issue is how it's 180 to Jaime's character progression throughought last 1 and half seasons, practically setting it back to where he started rather than where he is now.

It's very obvious which direction that thing is going (and it won't be different from the books really), that scene was just stupid from character perspective. A total shift from character he had grown to be to a character he was in season 1 for no other reason than shock value (because incestious love by the corpse of their son apparently wouldn't have been shocky enough)

[Velaniz]

Issue is not with the rape, issue is how it's 180 to Jaime's character progression throughought last 1 and half seasons, practically setting it back to where he started rather than where he is now.

It's very obvious which direction that thing is going (and it won't be different from the books really), that scene was just stupid from character perspective. A total shift from character he had grown to be to a character he was in season 1 for no other reason than shock value (because incestious love by the corpse of their son apparently wouldn't have been shocky enough)

Which is why I suspect they intend to go somewhere with this. You think the matter won't be brought up between them again in the next episode? It came off to me more as an expression of his sheer frustration at his circumstances. Cersei reacting to his dismembered hand like she did and completely snubbing him seemed like it stung him deep. I'd also disagree that it sets him back to the callous person who shoved Bran off that tower. You're not considering who the person on the receiving end of the rape was. If he'd raped an honorable, likable character, things would've been vastly different. But that isn't even remotely close to what Cersei is. If there is a shocking, gory and brutal death later in the series, Cersei is who it should be reserved for.

So yeah, it certainly does seem incongruent with what we've come to expect of both Cersei and Jaime. They wouldn't want Jaime regressing character-wise, and they certainly wouldn't want to portray Cersei as anyone deserving of sympathy. That's what I'd say makes it obvious that they do indeed intend to go somewhere with this, and that it wasn't solely gratuitous.

[MrLordDariusCrowley]

Jaime raping Cersei? Just wtf. Not only does it go against books but it was also entirely out of character at this point of the storyline.

Made me and my friend go "????????????????" and not in good way

Where was the bittersweet and emotional sort of "last time ever" love when Cersei was overcome by the loss of her child and Jaime still overwhelming feelings for his sister and pity for her.

Actually he did "rape" Cersei in the books aswell, although she did end up enjoying it.

Be warned, incoming rape scene.

She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. "I am not whole without you."
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The septons..."
"The others (White Walkers) can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risks, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallcloths. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.
"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristle hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei's heart beating in time with his own and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

This is taken from the middle of page 851 to the first few lines of page 852 of "A Storm of Swords" (paperback version) and . Obviously she changed her mind about having sex with Jaime, but it started out as rape, Jaime initiated it while she was telling him to stop.
Jaime is still awesome, but he definitely raped Cersei.

[Wilian]

If you look up, I already dissected that and it definately was not rape in manner you define. It was reluctance, because of fear being caught, not of want. That was her only worry in the scene and it dissipated very quickly.

[Sooba]

Yeah. I'll have to agree people are over-reacting. In a show where people are gutted regularly for no good reason, to take issue with a rape (of fucking Cersei, no less. Go back and watch that scene in season 1 of her ordering Lady's death) seems quite silly. It was also quite clear it was passion-driven, rather than malice-driven, considering Jaime's words immediately preceding it, when he reacted to how repulsed Cersei was by his fake hand. "Why did the Gods make me in love with such a hateful woman?"

It's part comeuppance for her, and part shock value. I mean, an incest twin rape with your incest-born son's corpse right there, right after your father left the scene giving your other incest-born son a sex-talk. It's just too GOT-esque.

I'd also withhold on criticizing the deviation from the books until some more episodes. It could very well be that the show intends to go somewhere with this.

It's going the same place the books are likely going (prediction, not spoiler); Jaime killing Cersei.

[MrLordDariusCrowley]

Agreed. While the scene itself is relatively similar to how it happens in the books, there it's basically Jaime just having returned, not Jaime having been around Cersei for weeks already. There, it's the last dying struggle of the old Jaime.

The series version reeks of arrogance on Jaime's part, which is something that was supposedly burned out of his system during his imprisonment and travels with Brienne. It serves no purpose, all it does is serve as a reminder that whatever Jaime tries to do he'll never be rid of his shitty old self. Which is so off the mark it's ridiculous.

I do have to agree with this though.

[s_bushido]

Issue is not with the rape, issue is how it's 180 to Jaime's character progression throughought last 1 and half seasons, practically setting it back to where he started rather than where he is now.

BS. You think Jaime would be the man he is if his sister wasn't able to elicit strong emotions/reactions in him? And he almost gutted Ned (and exacerbated the political turmoil of the entire kingdom) on behalf of his brother...so you wouldn't expect the conflicted feelings for Tyrion/Cersei to be easy to handle.

All that's really been done with his character progression is to show that he's not the one-dimensional oath-breaking, Bran-pushing, asshole everyone thinks he is. He could have been one of the more decent people in the 7 Kingdoms if not for the toxic influence of his normal-sized family members. And after the recent trauma he's suffered, being thrown back into that toxicity was bound to negatively effect him.

[apepi]

His speech of ""A wise king listens to his advisers until he comes of age, and the wisest kings continue to listen to them long afterwards " made it sound like he was more concerned with getting a puppet on the throne through which he'd have the actual power rather than to have a King capable of ruling properly on his own.

This is what I thought. Though I was thinking Twin might have killed Joffery but... I am not sure he is too smart for that. Remember not only Tryion was happy with him at that dinner table.

Though I can see this next one biting him in the ass.

[Paragas]

I can't be effed to read the rest of this. But I'm pretty sure it's been said:
Who do you think poisoned Joffrey?
Right now I've got a hawk's eye on Petyr but I also have some deep feeling that it was one of the Lannisters. At first I thought it was Olenna or Margaery, but the way they acted when alone was enough for me to give them the benefit of the doubt

[Disenchanted]

This. Tywin gets to eliminate what he considers a stain on the family name. He also gets to show Tommen how to rule properly, something he couldn't do with Joffrey.

Or Aerys for that matter.

Make no mistake. The whole realm knew it was Tywin who really ran things under Aerys reign. But Aerys also had the true power. And handled it horribly.