Response to Greg Street's "Progress" Post.

[xile]

I could take a raid that couldn't get past Kologarn and go kill reg Anub or even 4/5 ToGC or 9/12 ICC with a few HMs. I am sure many people had similar experiences. In fact, there's even an outdoor mob in Cataclysm dedicated to this sad truth.

No i've never in my existence had that happen and if it did, it wouldn't be because those encounters are necessarily harder, it would be because they have most likely never done those encounters. Which in case, things are usually significantly "harder" when you don't understand a bit about them.

[zealous]

That is why in TBC I was a theorycrafter on EJs. Somewhere I'm named in the credits of a few spreadsheets. In WotLK it was no longer needed, the game was too easy.

Stat simplification has nothing to do with the argument you presented.

Over 8 pages now you haven't answered the logical criticism of your post, selectively answering that which you could drown in semantics.

You've acted superior and made out the casual players (or basically any players that haven't achieved your alleged level of progression) to be the "rabidly jealous" culprits behind your misfortunes.

You've spoken for around 2k people that comprise the hardcore player base as if you've been given a mandate to do so.

And you haven't given any credentials (like for example an armory link) to support your claims as a hardcore raider who has Sinestra on farm.

Do you really expect to reach an understanding or for most people to take you seriously?

Bottom line is - both the TBC and WotLK progression models had their merits, just for different groups of players.
Blizzard is a commercial enterprise and will not spend time and money to cater to the smaller group just so they will have their ideal environment.

[bullseyed]

Once again you are wrong, TBC was kinda hard at best

TBC was kinda hard at best, yet was so horrible that less than 1% saw SWP. Oh hai contradiction.

the population was still learning how to play the game, much of the classes were underpowered or overpowered, and in the end most encounters were a joke.

True for you I'm sure, since you started raiding after the 30% HP nerf. The only real underpowered class during the SWP days were mages. They didn't really keep up with Warlocks, Hunters and Rogues in Sunwell. The joke was magetable, AI and leave. You didn't really see feral dps much either, but plenty of druids. So 8/9 classes were well balanced in at least one role.

As you said karazhan which you quoted, had 1 boss maybe 2 that were unique. One of them being the chess event which was laughably easy.

Chess was hardly a boss, it was Blizzard's first attempt at siege units. They gave up on it for the rest of the expansion. Most of the bosses in Karazhan were new concepts and it served as a training ground for those concepts on later bosses. Add kiting/CC on Moroes, spreading out in a set pattern on Maiden, managing threat on Curator, responding to emotes and spell effects on Shade of Aran, dealing with beam/artificial threat mechanics on Netherspite, controlling adds and hot target swapping on... I'm blanking on the name of that boss...behind the bookcase..., avoiding AoE on Prince.

Yog was all sorts of complexity.

Ulduar was the only well done raid in WotLK, even if it was a bit overtuned at times.

THe normal modes exists so that people of all skill levels and time commitment can see the content

If so, then no reason for normal mode to drop gear, right?

[Ulkesshern]

And you haven't given any credentials (like for example an armory link) to support your claims as a hardcore raider who has Sinestra on farm.

Do you really expect to reach an understanding or for most people to take you seriously?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...seyed/advanced

:P

[goozen]

3/4+4/5, 8/9+4/5 was harder than 11/12 or 9/12.

Normal modes? No, as long as we dont count shiraz as you needed res gear. And HC 5/13 is harder then a full clear of those by a long shot.

[Arterus]

Absolutely not. People cleared ICC because it was mechanically simplistic. Fewer cleared SSC/TK not because the deck was stacked against them but because the encounters couldn't be brute forced even when grossly outgeared. Anyone who played then remembers raids in T6 coming back to attune people to Kael/Vashj and failing even with overwhelming numerical advantage because the mechanics were complex and challenging.

The same is true now, every encounter in BoT/BWD is some permutation of a tank and spank with stuff going on. TBC encounters were high-mobility and theaters were more than big rooms. This was true even at the Karazhan level.

TBC was hard because encounters had learning curves and unusual mechanics. That is what defines complexity, not polygon count or whatnot.

Burning Crusade mechanics were far simpler, arguing against that is just looking back with "rose tinted glasses". The fights in TBC had far less going around on average with a few ridiculous fights throw in such as Kael'Thas.

SSC/TK encounters definitely could be brute forced, guilds just didn't return to them because there was simply no point unless you happened to need to get someone the vials. Obviously you're still going to wipe on resist fights if you don't have the proper resists or Vashj/Keal'Thas when you've only done them a few times. I gurantee you would still have wiped on Yogg'Saron coming back in full ToC gear after not touching him for a month. Hell, people Still wipe on Yogg and H-LK even in 359+ ilvl.

TBC wasn't hard, you're just remembering it fondly. Most of the fights in TBC had very simple mechanics, many of the instances were cleared fast. Black Temple took only around two weeks to completely finish it.

[bullseyed]

I am very confused, because you pretty much just reinforced his point and then contradicted yourself in the span of a few sentences. Most of these guilds are taking a break, or want to, because they're... sick of farming Sinestra every week.

Are... wow. You just said that anyone who doesn't want to farm Sinestra must want to quit WoW until the next content patch. Holy generalizations Batman. Maybe they want to raid something else. Something new and exciting. Did your closed mind ever consider that?

[Herecius]

Sadly, this thread has devolved into people merely taking snipes at one another. Rather than going on an infraction-spree, I'd rather just close this.