Resto Shamman: Deep Healing broken in 4.0.6 / Use crit until 4.1????

[Endus]

Excuse me? Spirit never has any kind of diminishing returns whatsoever. Unless something changed that I was unaware of, I'm pretty sure it never has.

There's no direct diminishing returns, but there's an effective cap in there at some point. It's a lot more difficult to set a number now, though.

Basically, spirit means more mana. If you've got mana left at the end of the fight, you either weren't pushing hard enough, or were stacking too much Spirit. Now that mana efficiency is a concern, more spirit WILL let you play less efficiently to get more throughput, but you need to be balancing your spirit against your gameplay; if you're ending boss fights at half mana, you're doing it wrong.

[Radux]

Expanding on that:

The 'effective cap' basically means you have too much Spirit at the expense of Intellect to further gain regen. Having huge amounts of Spirit, at this point, is there to push your MTT further. However, going for too much at the expense of other throughput stats is hurting your raid. Because, let's face it -- if you run oom with 2500 Spirit and a decent understanding of the class / how to heal, then something is wrong.

[Holyground]

I'm sorry, but how can you stack spirit at the expense of int? Unless you meant through gems/enchants, I guess. I understand stacking spirit against other secondary stats, but not int.

[Radux]

Holyground--

That's exactly what I meant. I realize you can't reforge away/to Intellect. However, some people out there (bless their souls) feel the need to go all out Spirit just to buff MTT to the max. In that case I'd finally be allowed to say: "You're doing it wrong."

[Hypernetic]

You can also stack spirit at the expense of int through trinkets (i.e. Jar over DMC:T or something).

[Whoopsa]

Spirit is a secondary stat and should be treated as such. It should not be traded 1 for 1 with Intellect EVER, but stacking it to obscene amounts is pointless (unless it's for MTT, in which case you should tell your raid's healers to get better). I was merely pointing out that "diminishing returns" is a completely different term from having a soft-cap type limit.

[Deleted]

Chim a gimmick fight. hps for it means jack all. I wouldn't look at fights like that. Also you need to consider something.
1) The easier and more farm the fight is, the better haste will be.

So ya, if you're doing farm content and blowing everyone away, well grats to you. But personally, I gear for progression where people will be low and close to dying a lot, and not gear for stuff thats a cakewalk.

I find these lines offensive, unnecessary and uncalled for. Basically claiming that i wouldn't care about progression and to be as dedicated as you apparently are, but maxing out on farm-content and feeling im the best.

For your answer, haste or mastery are both right now good to have, the difference is preference. Crit is not a throughput stat, its a regen stat. you should not be going crit if your goal is increasing your hps..

More of an answer i would have prefered solely although you didn't link/include statistics/EP-values etc, just personal opinions. I'm aware of haste and mastery being roughly the same but for preference, (i prefer haste and thats why i have it still), i just wanted to see the overall winner in some advanced theorycrafting. I also don't agree with crit not being throughput. It has two uses more preferably. Crits heals for more, applies 10% less damage taken and restores mana. It gives a combined value, but i saw that it was lower than the others in EP-Value yesterday even as combined.

If your targets are low, i feel inclined to heal them fast, not to heal them hard at once, while still being efficient, which basically shows diffrent opinions about what to reforge. It's only because of Healing Rain being our main aoe-heal, and it being spammed giving too less time between it's uptime casts, that i will go mastery after the patch, but it sure will be horrible to get used to slow casts and the need to put Healing Surge back on the bars.

[Jynus]

there is math posted in plenty of places. I'll just leave it at this. Both haste and mastery blow crit out of the water for throughput. If you want to go digging further to find it because you don't believe me, then feel free, but I assure you this is the truth. For example, healing someone at 50% hp, 4000 points of crit do the same healing as 2000 points of mastery. Thats how bad crit scales behind. As for AH, seriously? It's useless unless on tanks. and even a base amount of crit is enough with a rolling riptide to have a high enough uptime.

As for regen, you're correct. Thats why it's a regen stat....

[Deleted]

there is math posted in plenty of places. I'll just leave it at this. Both haste and mastery blow crit out of the water for throughput. If you want to go digging further to find it because you don't believe me, then feel free, but I assure you this is the truth. For example, healing someone at 50% hp, 4000 points of crit do the same healing as 2000 points of mastery. Thats how bad crit scales behind. As for AH, seriously? It's useless unless on tanks. and even a base amount of crit is enough with a rolling riptide to have a high enough uptime.

As for regen, you're correct. Thats why it's a regen stat....

As i wrote earlier...
" .....but i saw that it was lower than the others in EP-Value yesterday even as combined."

The main focus on my first post was best stat, not throughput necessarily overall, i believe. My second post was focused on the defense of haste against mastery in progressive healing. I was already convinced crit wasn't better in throughput than the others before i wrote my first post.

[Jynus]

haste is fine currently. parsewise on WOL, I don't see much of a difference from haste to mastery stacking. Either or can be considered preference at this time. But I will say this in haste vs mastery debate.

For haste:
1) Better for farm and easy content
2) Better for pure tank healing role.
3) Better if TC is a core part of your playstyle

For mastery:
1) Better for progression where raid get demolished a lot
2) Getting buffed in 4.1 so should becomes best throughput stat period then
3) has increasing returns vs other stats long as you're able to heal at breakpoint
4) effects all healing done, while haste does not

[Hypernetic]

You forgot about mastery being sexier.

[Deleted]

haste is fine currently. parsewise on WOL, I don't see much of a difference from haste to mastery stacking. Either or can be considered preference at this time. But I will say this in haste vs mastery debate.

For haste:
1) Better for farm and easy content
2) Better for pure tank healing role.
3) Better if TC is a core part of your playstyle

For mastery:
1) Better for progression where raid get demolished a lot
2) Getting buffed in 4.1 so should becomes best throughput stat period then
3) has increasing returns vs other stats long as you're able to heal at breakpoint
4) effects all healing done, while haste does not

Thats more like it! Although....

For mastery:

2. Doesn't apply for 4.0.6 which was my question. I'ts obvious mastery will be best after the patch, just as obvious as crit not being best throughputstat.

4. Not in 4.0.6, and where doesn't haste affect healing? Unleash Life? I believe all casts and HoTs except for instants and Healing stream are affected.

What is "TC" ?

Also, right now, mastery was only effective somewhere when targets we're below 50% hp or something in comparison to other stats. Can i get these numbers confimed?

[Jynus]

Mastery > crit when target below 88% hp for aoe heals and 67% for heals that proc AA.
Mastery > haste for anything below 48% hp.

In addition, haste does not effect HR and ELW past a breakpoint. (that is to say, it has so little effect, it's not worth mentioning compared to other stats) And in further addition, it has reduced returns on our instant spells. So a point of haste has something like 75% effectiveness on Riptide, ES and UE. (it's not a hard cap number, it will vary slightly depending on your spell selection, but it will always be diminished returns)

TC = telluric currents

[Deleted]

Yeah but the purpous of getting haste is not solely for hots/ticks. Its casts aswell. Healing Rain cast time, and the uptime it lowered, giving you more uptime. Meanwhile i use CH accually, if i have excessive mana to last the fight out, even though it sucks.

I know about the 916 soft one, but next is at 2k or something. It was Riptide there i think. If you're to stack up to 2k, you would have about 1 sec cast on your heals with everything popped, giving you the "hardcap". I also prioritize mobility in fights. Hardcasting was really painful it wrath. Indeed now you have a easier ways, for example Ancestral Swiftness, more instant-casts/fire and forget and Spiritwalkers Grace, so i guess it won't be as much of a pain to live without haste as it was before.

Anyways, i thank you for your infos and am exciting at least trying out mastery after the patch. Try to speak more impartially and more informative in the beginning next time

[Sard]

Whole lot of wrong in this thread.

1. Mastery is already really amazing if you are in a progression guild. The only issue Mastery had before was that your targets were often not low enough to receive a huge benefit. The 'lol aoe waves wash over your raid' approach to 25 man Heroics means that your healing rain/chain heals (your main heals, lets face it) are hitting much lower health targets (look at Magmaw for a good example) and that mastery is boss.

2. You stack spirit as a basic mana regen mechanism, and for the increase to your MTT. Your *real* mana regen in heroics seems to come from TC lighting bolt spam. I don't know how I would heal the way I do (rain either on cooldown or very often, lots of chain heals, rolling riptides on tanks, tidal'ed GHW's on low health people) without TC on most heroic fights.

3. The only real argument at this point IMO is haste vs mastery, and how much of each. There are good argument to be made for both heavy haste with some mastery and heavy mastery with some haste - crit is garbage. I am personally leaning towards heavy mastery with some haste, as I find my TC regen at current level is adequate and I prefer the ridiculous mastery numbers on some fights.

[Whoopsa]

Crit isn't entirely useless. It's nice for AA, and if your raid relies on you for AF (when there's no priest). Beyond that, yeah it's pretty useless, as regen should come from Spirit for MTT instead of crit.

[Roidzilla]

Saying any spirit past 2500 is doing it wrong is a quote from someone who hasn't done the later HMs or runs multiple manatides/innervates. Being the Sole resto shaman of a progression guild not receiving Innervates I run with 2704spirit without Tsunami/4piece up and I still run fairly close to oom on fights like Nef. Theres really no need to stack haste past the 1st breakpoint which is 916 since mastery is the current best throughput stat and conserves more mana than haste. Under the same circumstances as myself you want to run 2600 spirit minimum for the later HMs (not including 4piece and tsunami) get your 1st haste breakpoint then stack mastery.

[Whoopsa]

Saying any spirit past 2500 is doing it wrong is a quote from someone who hasn't done the later HMs or runs multiple manatides/innervates. Being the Sole resto shaman of a progression guild not receiving Innervates I run with 2704spirit without Tsunami/4piece up and I still run fairly close to oom on fights like Nef. Theres really no need to stack haste past the 1st breakpoint which is 916 since mastery is the current best throughput stat and conserves more mana than haste. Under the same circumstances as myself you want to run 2600 spirit minimum for the later HMs (not including 4piece and tsunami) get your 1st haste breakpoint then stack mastery.

Maybe you're just doing it wrong. I run 2k Spirit without 4 piece or Tsunami up (but I do have them) and virtually never run OOM.

[Xionor]

Healing is no longer a science that can be calculated.

Since you have periods when you're taking 0 damage and periods when you take A LOT of damage and periods when you only take Mediocre damage and now healing is about decisions, not spamming, it is impossible to call out a best stat for anything.

SimCrafts work with perfect conditions on a non-stop single-target or max-target(for AoE) casting basis, which is NEVER the case in ANY encounter in Cataclysm.

Simply heal with what you have and as long as the raid is alive you're doing your job great!

Maybe you're just doing it wrong. I run 2k Spirit without 4 piece or Tsunami up (but I do have them) and virtually never run OOM.

Maybe -you're- doing it wrong. I run with nearly 3k spirit w/o Tsunami with a very HM-progressed raid guild and on HC Maloriak 25 I am nearly always OOM within the first few minutes(of a ~12 minute fight). On general I eat a million Innervates on longer Heroic Mode fights and feel like a Mana Void or something.
That said, I rarely ever use Healing Surge(only when people are below 20% HP and have incoming damage) and try to focus on Riptide/Chain Heal + Healing Wave, with HS/GHW reserved only for large-damage hits that need to be healed fast before the next.

[Roidzilla]

Maybe you're just doing it wrong. I run 2k Spirit without 4 piece or Tsunami up (but I do have them) and virtually never run OOM.

What do you run 7-8 healers and heal for like 8k hps every fight?