"10 mans are overtuned" is getting out of hand

[Deleted]

Considering V&T was completely impossible before the nerf in 10 man I'm inclined to say you're talking out of your ass a bit. Just because people complain about something being over tuned in 10 man doesn't mean they're out for attention, there are legitimate concerns here.

Considering Magmaw, Sinestra, Atramedes, V&T, Cho'Gall, Al'Akir and Ascendant Council 25 Heroic was pretty much impossible before nerf in 25 man...



People does not realise that the 25 mans was imbalanced in the beginning to, just that they got nerfed aswell.

[Choda]

You've no idea about cho'gall but have an opinion on sinestra? lol.

I did clarify that I have not done either of the fights, but Sinestra has been debated a lot over the past 4-5 days, and there is a lot of info available from the guilds that are on her. But if you want, sure, disregard both of those parts as I was using my gut feeling.

[Paskgotsheal]

I am tired of people saying 10s harder now. They have been nerfed alot since their inception. Alot more then 25. The reason was because they WERE substainlly harder. I'm gonna make a topic with nerfs so you guys can see the difference. The only thing on 10 is that the DPS per person is still higher on 10 then 25 which makes no sense considering moat tens don't have every single buff. But on alot of fights they did nerf the health of the boss and they will probably continue to do so.

[Blacksen]

10 mans being "harder" across the board is an illusion. Having done 9/13 heroic in the 10man and 8/13 heroic in the 25man, they're generally about equal. Some fights are significantly easier in the 25man (Halfus, Chimaeron), while other fights are significantly easier in the 10man (Omnotron, Al'Akir), but most are more or less the same.

The illusion is generated by the unique struggles of a 10man guild on the macro-level. While the fights might not be as hard, running a 10man guild is pretty rough. While 10mans have access to the ideal raid comp, it's hard to secure it between absences and recruitment.
- Recruitment is brutal and desperate for 10man guilds. With so many guilds at about the same progression level, it's incredibly hard to stand out as a 10man guild. Meanwhile, with fewer 25man guilds, it's easier for them to "stand out." Also, recruitment can get desperate, but I'll get into that later.
- 10man raids have 0 flexibility. If your rogue can't nail an interrupt rotation, a 10man raid is basically screwed. Meanwhile, a 25man raid can just swap people doing it. When one of my rogues is lagging on heroic Omnotron, I can just ask the other rogue to do the interrupts. If your holy/disc priest has to miss a night of raiding, that could easily mean that a "farm boss" prevents you from attempting progression because you lack the raid comp. For a 25man raid, the decisions come down to a 3rd warlock or a 3rd mage, which really make little difference.
- Mechanics that are easier in 10man versions are later in progression. Heroic Al'Akir is significantly easier in the 10man due to the chain lightning mechanic in phase 1, along with the ease of killing adds in phase 2. Heroic Ascendants is significantly easier in the 10man due to the ease of lightning rod and the ease of spreading out in phase 3. Heroic V+T is easier in the 10man conditional upon having a great rogue. Meanwhile, fights that are harder on 10man teams, by nature of mechanics or raid comp, are the first ones to go after: Halfus, Chimaeron, Maloriak.
- 10man raiders were more likely to quit to begin with. A lot of 10man teams were created by players "coming back for Cata" that had quit in the past year. They thought something would be different, and raiding with their friends would be fun. Once they came back, they realized that their friends sucked, and that wiping was fun, and they remember all the reasons they quit to begin with. Meanwhile, most 25man guilds were established - they had players that had been raiding together in current and challenging content for several months. I know my guild had 25 players that had been playing for over 6 months straight, clearing heroic ICC/RS every week. That kind of commitment just wasn't there in 10man guilds.
- One person leaving kills an entire 10man guild. Imagine that you have 2 melee on your 10man roster, and one quits. The 25man equivalent is 3-4 of your melee quitting at the exact same moment. That rarely happens. We have 4 mages in our 25man guild. A 10man guild I know had 1 mage. When that 1 mage left, it would be the same as our 4 mages leaving on the same day. Does this always kill the guild? No, certainly not. But it can leave a huge dent that stalls progression and restarts the vicious cycle into point 1 (recruitment is hard).

[woopytywoop]

10mans have less flexibility and casual guilds mostly do 10mans.
That's why there is more QQ about 10mans than 25's.

The groups running 10mans are in general less skilled and they have fewer options to answer the mechanics so they feel they are overtuned and QQ on forums.

Don't know what is right or wrong, but with the lack of lower tier content and the pretty unforgivable mechanics a lot of casual end game guilds aren't really enjoying content compared to the more hardcore minded raiders and they think it is overtuned. While imo they still need to wake up from the wrath zerk fest where most bosses could be defeated if half of the raid knew what they were doing.

[Deleted]

I did clarify that I have not done either of the fights, but Sinestra has been debated a lot over the past 4-5 days, and there is a lot of info available from the guilds that are on her. But if you want, sure, disregard both of those parts as I was using my gut feeling.

Well in 25 you can play the corrupted mage/moonkin tactic x3.

[sicness]

Considering Magmaw, Sinestra, Atramedes, V&T, Cho'Gall, Al'Akir and Ascendant Council 25 Heroic was pretty much impossible before nerf in 25 man...



People does not realise that the 25 mans was imbalanced in the beginning to, just that they got nerfed aswell.

Nerf much sooner as well. How long did V&T go un-nerfed in 10 man? There's also a slight difference in completely impossible and 'pretty much impossible'. When the top guilds can do an encounter yet no one can do another there's a pretty obvious difference there.

[Deleted]

Blizzard can't nerf 10 man before 10 man guilds reach the boss and blizzard notes its to hard.

During release for example, Atramedes was impossible in both modes.

V&T was nerfed quite quickly in 25 man mode, and when the 10 man guilds started on this boss weeks later, it was also nerfed.
Council - After Paragons first kill it recieved the "Prefer ranged target" nerf, which manly concerned 25 man.
Cho'Gall - During the first night of progress on Cho'Gall 25 Heroic, there was several nerfs on him, fixes.
Sinestra - Dear god, don't get started on this boss. This boss was insanely bugged in 25 man and it took days of constant hotfixes to "fix it".
Now 10 man guild reached this boss several months later and goes "omg overtuned", while in fact it was even more overtuned in 25 man when they first reached it.

Most of the top 10man guilds were actually way more far then you think. But Blizzard doesnt give them attention and bother about overtuned bosses in 10man as much as they do in 25man. There were several guilds killing Halfus/Chimaeron in dec/early jan. Maloriak didnt get fixed until late january and V&T didnt get fixed until late february. The top 10man guilds announced very early that Maloriak and V&T wasnt tuned for 10man, these encounters had adds who had same/almost same healthpools like in 25man. But it took weeks/mnths for blizzard to get it fixed...

First 10man guild who reached Sinestra did it over a mnth ago. Blizzard tuned Sinestra 25man in 5days when Paragon, FTH progressed on her. But still Sinestra 10man isnt tuned properly yet... Instead Blizzard waits mnths until atleast 50 10man guilds have reached a boss before they bother to do something..

[Maldread]

id say 10 mans are ON THE WHOLE more difficult than 25s because youre not allowed to fuck up in 10 mans. at all. ever. you fuck up its a wipe. in 25s you have 3 brezzes, not 1 for example. you also have a lot more flexibility and random cooldowns to draw upon.

[velias1234]

It was mostly 25 man guilds going in and doing it in 10 man to get it done, and not trying 25. Btw.

No, alakir really is a ton easier on 10 man heroic becuase of positioning mechanics.

[bpcatt1]

I only do 10-man except for a 25-man BH here and there. I think the world rankings speak for themselves on this matter. Any fight at either size on regular isn't too bad once you get your repetitions in. However, heroics are another story.

If your guild is a 25-man raiding guild and killed Sinestra today for the first time, your guild would be ranked 70th in the world (as of this moment). If your guild is a 10-man raiding guild and killed Sinestra today for the first time, your guild would be ranked 5th in the world (as of this moment).

Is this to say that are impossible?... of course not. However, to really push 10-man heroic content, I think you have to stack the raid for the fights more than on 25-man. Also, everyone has to perform flawlessly. 25-man can typically afford to lose a person or two. You really can't afford that in 10.

[Deleted]

10 mans being "harder" across the board is an illusion. Having done 9/13 heroic in the 10man and 8/13 heroic in the 25man, they're generally about equal. Some fights are significantly easier in the 25man (Halfus, Chimaeron), while other fights are significantly easier in the 10man (Omnotron, Al'Akir), but most are more or less the same.

The illusion is generated by the unique struggles of a 10man guild on the macro-level. While the fights might not be as hard, running a 10man guild is pretty rough. While 10mans have access to the ideal raid comp, it's hard to secure it between absences and recruitment.
- Recruitment is brutal and desperate for 10man guilds. With so many guilds at about the same progression level, it's incredibly hard to stand out as a 10man guild. Meanwhile, with fewer 25man guilds, it's easier for them to "stand out." Also, recruitment can get desperate, but I'll get into that later.
- 10man raids have 0 flexibility. If your rogue can't nail an interrupt rotation, a 10man raid is basically screwed. Meanwhile, a 25man raid can just swap people doing it. When one of my rogues is lagging on heroic Omnotron, I can just ask the other rogue to do the interrupts. If your holy/disc priest has to miss a night of raiding, that could easily mean that a "farm boss" prevents you from attempting progression because you lack the raid comp. For a 25man raid, the decisions come down to a 3rd warlock or a 3rd mage, which really make little difference.
- Mechanics that are easier in 10man versions are later in progression. Heroic Al'Akir is significantly easier in the 10man due to the chain lightning mechanic in phase 1, along with the ease of killing adds in phase 2. Heroic Ascendants is significantly easier in the 10man due to the ease of lightning rod and the ease of spreading out in phase 3. Heroic V+T is easier in the 10man conditional upon having a great rogue. Meanwhile, fights that are harder on 10man teams, by nature of mechanics or raid comp, are the first ones to go after: Halfus, Chimaeron, Maloriak.
- 10man raiders were more likely to quit to begin with. A lot of 10man teams were created by players "coming back for Cata" that had quit in the past year. They thought something would be different, and raiding with their friends would be fun. Once they came back, they realized that their friends sucked, and that wiping was fun, and they remember all the reasons they quit to begin with. Meanwhile, most 25man guilds were established - they had players that had been raiding together in current and challenging content for several months. I know my guild had 25 players that had been playing for over 6 months straight, clearing heroic ICC/RS every week. That kind of commitment just wasn't there in 10man guilds.
- One person leaving kills an entire 10man guild. Imagine that you have 2 melee on your 10man roster, and one quits. The 25man equivalent is 3-4 of your melee quitting at the exact same moment. That rarely happens. We have 4 mages in our 25man guild. A 10man guild I know had 1 mage. When that 1 mage left, it would be the same as our 4 mages leaving on the same day. Does this always kill the guild? No, certainly not. But it can leave a huge dent that stalls progression and restarts the vicious cycle into point 1 (recruitment is hard).

We're a new 10m guild, and the way we are dealing with this/trying to deal with this is have a large enough roster (18 I think currently) with people who don't mind slacking or sitting out for a night. We still only have 1 rogue/ret/lock, no resto druids, no dk's, and a bit of other stuff that creates some composition issues, but in general 'putting a raid together' is pretty easy nowadays. We're also getting quite a few xrealm applications from people who just want that 'community/fun spirit' that you can't get in a 25 man. Our only priest did leave, but we resolved that problem by having our main tank going priest. Yes wasted gear, yes a heavily undergeared char in heroic raids, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

On the flipside, disipline is a lot harder to maintain due to the relaxed atmosphere. We're currently having to consider the position of our only dps warrior due to this (who of course is friends with the only ret and only warrior tank), and it could have some serious implications should we be required to remove him for attitude issues. Additionally the lockout mechanism is currently silly for heroic. If somebody kills heroic magmaw, then we have to do normal Omnotron due to setup issues, that person will not be able to continue on the heroic lockout.

I think in the longer term, every serious 10m guild is going to have to run 2x10m teams with a roster of around 25 to seriously compete even on a server level. This of course creates its own logistical problems such as 'when does the 2nd run go so not to keep people saved.'

[cFortyfive]

Lets take an example. Lightning Rod in Ascendant Council.
If one person stands with this in 10 man next to the raid = wipe
If one person stands with this in 25 man next to the raid = wipe.

In 10 man 1 guy need to go away from 9 players
In 25 man 3 guys need to move away from 24 players.

Does this make 25 man 800% harder?

Certainly not.

Mhh yes it in this case I have to say it kinda does. We have wiped literally ~2 times in phase 3 - once in phase 1 and 3947583948759348759384593847598 times in phase 2. 25 man has so much more people who can fail to Icebombs or lightning rods it's not even funny despite these mechanics being so easy and I say that as a class with no movement speed increase.

If somebody kills heroic magmaw, then we have to do normal Omnotron due to setup issues, that person will not be able to continue on the heroic lockout.

Mhhh what that sounds to me like some kind of stupid bug ?

[Rampant Rabbit]

You did see the "might", right? You know what it means? But sure, let's do it your way, why would it be harder now? Assuming there's a rogue in the group then there's nothing in the mechanics that would disadvantage a 10 man raid over a 25 man one, is there? For all it's worth, stacking and spreading should happen much faster and easier.

What's so hard about the Valiona fight if I may ask? I raid 10-man and recently 2 shot V&T and we didn't have a rogue and it was super easy if you ask me.

[Chob]

What's so hard about the Valiona fight if I may ask? I raid 10-man and recently 2 shot V&T and we didn't have a rogue and it was super easy if you ask me.

Nothing, as Choda suggested.. V&T is a good example where they've went from overtuned, to undertuned hehe

[Paskgotsheal]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/877318-10-man-nerfs

[Keoren]

id say 10 mans are ON THE WHOLE more difficult than 25s because youre not allowed to fuck up in 10 mans. at all. ever. you fuck up its a wipe. in 25s you have 3 brezzes, not 1 for example

While I'm not disagreeing with multiple other arguments in this thread I wish people would cut down on the "you can have half of your raid die on 25". If we want to bring up that aspect we should take multiple factors into account such as how the mechanics affect different group sizes. On multiple cases it is notably easier to die on 25-man (cases like this do exist on 10-man too especially when certain group utilities help the survivability of the group notably), plus you have x2.5 the people with the chance of making the same mistake as the guy dying on an equivalent 10-man did. Considering the general likeliness of dying on 25-man, I believe 3 to 1 battle resses is reasonably balanced.

I'd also like to bring up that for multiple guilds especially early on to the tier on heroic encounters a single person does make or break the fight even on 25-man.

It's alot more complicated than "You can have more people die on 25-man" even if that is technically true.

[G l o w y r m]

Chimaeron - Way way way WAY easier on 25 man. He still gives us trouble on 10, mainly due to a huge lack of effective tank / raid cooldowns during Feuds. Can't have a LoH rotation as you'd do on 25, or a barrier / aura mastery for every feud.

You don't need a raid CD for feud, just the tank.

[Fenixdown]

This is what I find amusing about this whole "QQQ X is way overtuned and class dependant" excuse.

Sunwell, according to most BC hardcore players, was the "crowning achievement" of Blizzard's development team. A raid so incredibly overtuned for anyone that didn't have Illidan on farm status months in advance and even then STILL required five shamans rolling Heroisms and 25 leatherworkers rolling haste drums around. People praise to the heavens this raid like it was a gift from the gaming gods.

Then 10-man heroic modes are overtuned, and everyone is crying foul and wants nerfs.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. How was one nearly impossible raid instance "fantastic and I miss it", but another one was "omg plz fix this it's no fun wiping"?

That's where I think the "10-man is overtuned" argument falls flat on it's face. If you want to really challenge yourself, you do 10-man heroic. If not, join a 25-man guild.

Most people who are crying though are only doing 10's now because they thought it would just be faceroll like in Wrath. In fact, most of those guilds used to be 25-man guilds, and now they struggle to get by because they decided that stabbing 15 of their loyal and devoted raiders in the back was a better idea than maybe showing some slight bit of civility towards others and sticking to the guns that they already had in the first place. If that's the kind of guild that is struggling in 10's, then honestly, I don't even have sympathy for whatever complaints they have in the first place. They got what they deserved.

[Choda]

What's so hard about the Valiona fight if I may ask? I raid 10-man and recently 2 shot V&T and we didn't have a rogue and it was super easy if you ask me.

Again I did say "it's a pushover on both difficulties". I was just elaborating my point to the guy who responded. The fight is very easy overall.