Combustion and Mastery

[yjmark]

Does Combustion double dip into Mastery? Per the Flashburn tooltip, all of your DoTs are increased by Mastery. So, let's say you have a bunch of DoTs going that are all larger due to Mastery (Ignite, Living Bomb, and Pyro). Then, when you create a combustion DoT from those, do you get the mastery bonus again?

[Sesshomaru]

I believe you recieve mastery bonus from the DoT alone, with the three others ticking. (i.e. since they combine into 1 DoT)
That being said, I'm not a Mage so I wouldn't know.

[Rezkin]

Any fire dmg dot is increased with mastery, everyone...

[Deleted]

I would say no, see: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post10711001

I could very closely calculate the combustion value off the ticks of Ignite and LB, probably a rounding issue on the hasted LB
The default mastery adds 22% tick damage and my 639 mastery rating adds another 3.56 mastery * 2.8% = 9.97% for a total of 31.97% extra damage

If it would double dip, I would expect not 5096 combustion ticks but rather a tick of 6725.

Unless Mastery damage doesnt show up in the logs somehow, but I doubt that.

[Finr]

While I don't directly know the answer to this question - I thnk that an answer in either way (Yes it does or No it does not) is moot. Mastery is an aweful stat for fire in general. Even if it does Double Dip with Combustion - Combustion only happens for about 10 seconds every two minutes. I can't imagine gearing/Geming for it.

With that said, it would be interesting to know if you could pop a Mastery Pot prior to combusting. My worry (much like burning another GCD for my Troll Racial) would be that taking a moment to apply the Pot could change the Combustion amount (As shown on CombustionHelper) - thus making it useless.

[Spleen]

You'd be better off popping a Volcanic pot for +Int since that will impact every spell - but yeah, there's still an RNG element to everything so it's always a roll of the dice.

[Temsen]

Volcanic Potion would only affect the combustion initial damage, wouldn't it?
And.. mastery pot? There is no such thing, unless you're talking about the elixir but there's no reason to not have it during the whole fight. (if you insist on using one that is)

[Finr]

As alchemy is my 5th profession (meaning top priority after 4 others) - I've never bothered to learn much about it. Generally speaking, like in this Expac, there is one flask you need and on Potion.

All that I know is that my alchemist can still skill up off of the mastery Pot/Flask/Elixer. I know that it exists (pot/flask/elixer) because last night I logged onto the Alch - to make more Volcanic Pots after our Tuesday raid.

*Also - my comments about mastery were meant to soften the blow of my first comments. Which basically said - Who cares if Mastery doubles Combustion - It still sucks as a stat. I personally have no intenion of using anything but Volcanics until something better comes along. Which is unlikely because I think the Vol. Pots are giving 1200 INT - which would equate to nearly double that (~2400) of either Haste or Crit. (I don't know the exact relative values of INT vs crit/haste so that's just "Ballpark" numbers.)

[takolin]

Volcanic Potion would only affect the combustion initial damage, wouldn't it?
And.. mastery pot? There is no such thing, unless you're talking about the elixir but there's no reason to not have it during the whole fight. (if you insist on using one that is)

Not really.

Combustion uses your current haste/crit/SP to determin the LB/pyro dot dps. And if you manage to get a nice ignite while under the effect of said int potion, it would've also helped towards a nice combustion.

[yjmark]

I would say no, see: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post10711001

I could very closely calculate the combustion value off the ticks of Ignite and LB, probably a rounding issue on the hasted LB
The default mastery adds 22% tick damage and my 639 mastery rating adds another 3.56 mastery * 2.8% = 9.97% for a total of 31.97% extra damage

If it would double dip, I would expect not 5096 combustion ticks but rather a tick of 6725.

Unless Mastery damage doesnt show up in the logs somehow, but I doubt that.

Thank you. I think your post pretty much confirms that Combustion does not double dip Mastery.

Oh, and this was just a mechanics question. It was not intended to indicate you should stack Mastery or anything like that.

[Spectral]

While I don't directly know the answer to this question - I thnk that an answer in either way (Yes it does or No it does not) is moot. Mastery is an aweful stat for fire in general. Even if it does Double Dip with Combustion - Combustion only happens for about 10 seconds every two minutes. I can't imagine gearing/Geming for it.

The notion that Mastery is "aweful" [sic] is just plain blatantly wrong. A simple run through SimCraft will show you in short order that for the bulk of Fire Mages, there's not a huge difference between Haste, Crit, and Mastery, and whatever minor difference exists will fluctuate based on how much of each other secondary stat is present.

In any case though, you're correct that Mastery shouldn't be explicitly gemmed or geared for. Nonetheless, Intellect is so much stronger than every other stat that you'll want whatever the highest ilevel PvE gear you can get is, regardless of whether it has Crit, Mastery, or Haste.

[Spleen]

The notion that Mastery is "aweful" [sic] is just plain blatantly wrong. A simple run through SimCraft will show you in short order that for the bulk of Fire Mages, there's not a huge difference between Haste, Crit, and Mastery, and whatever minor difference exists will fluctuate based on how much of each other secondary stat is present.

In any case though, you're correct that Mastery shouldn't be explicitly gemmed or geared for. Nonetheless, Intellect is so much stronger than every other stat that you'll want whatever the highest ilevel PvE gear you can get is, regardless of whether it has Crit, Mastery, or Haste.

That depends 100% on your gear and as a blanket statement is patently false.

Sim me. You'll get 2.x for int, nada for hit (capped), ~.8 for haste, followed by .42 crit and .41 mastery.

Nowhere near "not a huge difference" since, as we learned in grade school, .8 is roughly twice .4, no?

You are correct that it depends on what stats are present (read also: your gear). And that running sims is the best way to figure out what stat is best for YOU.

Unless you're simming folks it's dangerous to give out blanket statements.

In each and every sim on my toon, mastery has come out dead last. Sometimes, it's not by much (see above), but always in last.

Mastery and Crit suffer the same problem for fire mages - they are both open to ignite munches which drop ignite dps by a substantial (often 30-40% or MORE of ignite damage) amount.

While 4.1 will likely improve some of that loss, it remains to be seen whether munching will be reduced to the point where crit gains ground - let alone if mastery does.

TL;DR: Mastery is a poor (awful/aweful if you prefer) stat for fire mages at present and spelling aside, Finr is correct about not gearing/gemming for mastery (as you've acknowledged).

The thread asked about double-dipping though, and he got his answer.

[Spectral]

I don't know your character's name (I assume Spleen, but I don't want to Sim inaccurately) so I'll take your word for your scale factors. I said, "the bulk of Mages" deliberately, as actual values fluctuate based on the character. If I'm incorrect (entirely possible) and Haste is generally superior, I stand corrected. Every other statement I've made, however, I'll stand by as correct - Mastery is not awful, but regularly similar to Crit and sometimes Haste in value. All are sufficiently below Intellect that they're not worth gemming for without excellent socket bonuses, and none are generally good enough to pass on the Int increase from a higher ilevel.

It seems that we're largely arguing a semantic point that is, as you stated, irrelevant to the point of the thread though. Mastery isn't something Fire Mages should be gearing around; I just take issue with people that give advice that appears (to me, and maybe I've misread) to explicitly avoid Mastery.

[Spleen]

I don't know your character's name (I assume Spleen, but I don't want to Sim inaccurately) so I'll take your word for your scale factors. I said, "the bulk of Mages" deliberately, as actual values fluctuate based on the character. If I'm incorrect (entirely possible) and Haste is generally superior, I stand corrected. Every other statement I've made, however, I'll stand by as correct - Mastery is not awful, but regularly similar to Crit and sometimes Haste in value. All are sufficiently below Intellect that they're not worth gemming for without excellent socket bonuses, and none are generally good enough to pass on the Int increase from a higher ilevel.

It seems that we're largely arguing a semantic point that is, as you stated, irrelevant to the point of the thread though. Mastery isn't something Fire Mages should be gearing around; I just take issue with people that give advice that appears (to me, and maybe I've misread) to explicitly avoid Mastery.

That's a fair point (magespleen on BL, btw - ignore my intermediate state on reforging/gemming - I just stepped down from active raiding due to imminent child birth).

Haste has remained above crit and mastery on my toon for quite some time (roughly since I started raiding) and since I've only gotten as far as Nef, I represent the folks who haven't had access to BWD and BoT full clears, no heroic gear, etc.

From what I've seen, until your haste goes past ~1200/1250 or so, Crit and Mastery remain low (and then it's crit that gains relevance - not mastery per se).

You won't reforge into +Mastery, and you won't reforge any stat other than Spirit (if your heals get their gear and haven't seen the DPS equiv bracers/wands, etc) into +haste/hit and keep mastery.

That means that you actively trade out mastery for a more beneficial stat at your earliest convenience. Even with the reduction in ignite munching 4.1 promises, I strongly suspect mastery will remain our weakest stat.

So while calling it "poor", "awful", etc may be beleaguering the point, for folks who haven't seen heroic content, who only have 2 or 3 piece, there is no situation where mastery becomes anything but our weakest stat.

I'm fairly certain that it's still the weakest stat in BiS gear, but I'm not at home and won't make that blanket statement without support.

So avoid mastery? Not necessarily, but actively reforge it into a stronger stat when you can? Absolutely. For Cloth gear, only spirit is worse for mages

[Zavri]

I believe you recieve mastery bonus from the DoT alone, with the three others ticking. (i.e. since they combine into 1 DoT)
That being said, I'm not a Mage so I wouldn't know.

If you're not a mage....why are you posting in the mage forum to answer a mage question?

[Spectral]

So avoid mastery? Not necessarily, but actively reforge it into a stronger stat when you can? Absolutely. For Cloth gear, only spirit is worse for mages

Definitely the most salient point. I agree! :-)

To be entirely clear, my initial reason for posting is that, to me, "Mastery is awful" implies that it's so bad that even higher ilevel gear should be passed on if it has Mastery, as where your summary above is much, much better and leads to the much better conclusion to take other stats where possible and reforge to whatever's best according to sims. Which, of course, is always true!