Attention all Tanks...! Please...

[Deleted]

Ummm, what?

What part was hard to understand? Make sure all items have mastery and parry, real simple.

[iglocska]

General rule of thumb
If an item has Parry and mastery. Do not Reforge
If an item has Dodge and Mastery. Reforge Dodge to Mastery.
If an item has Expertise and Master. Reforge Expertise to Parry.

Good luck with that.

[Tziva]

That's not quite right. Keep in mind all DKs get +9% 'free' hit now, so our special melee attacks won't miss. They can get dodged/parried of course, and yes, IT is a spell so can miss more often (it's what slows down a boss's attack speed). But you just plan ahead for that, refreshing it 3 or 4 seconds before it runs out to take into account that you might miss. Really with 30+ seconds to refresh things on your own, you have plenty of time to get your required debuffs on the boss, and this assuming no one else is backing you up (other tanks, some dps, etc.) Now, it is possible to have your death strike (DK's primary survival mechanic, what Mastery helps) not hit the boss. If you get parried or something at a bad time, yes, it can be tough. But that's more RNGish. You can't give up so much Mastery just to get some hit/expertise that (first off you can't really cap) might let you hit a handful more often, but does so little for you, you still die cause you're running around with 12.4 Mastery rating.

(I am aware you can't reasonably hard cap expertise, but "cap" is a pretty accepted colloquialism for soft capping.)

I don't play a DK so I haven't tanked end-game on one, but my understanding is that hit and expertise are not just threat stats for a DK and so it's not just a matter of specials landing (which I realise is not an issue). I thought some of your survivability talents depended on it, making them a lot more desirable for DKs than for other tanking classes where they are simply threat stats. Of course, having no DK knowledge, I couldn't tell you what abilities or talents those are.

I also wasn't suggesting DKs should give up mastery for either stat (I'm not sure where you got that from), but simply that unlike other classes, hit and expertise aren't low-value stats and they probably won't avoid them and may even want to cap them.

[deeveeus]

as a paladin tank i had issues for a while with threat generation, i came to the paladin boards on this server they suggested hit and exp. i hit both soft caps 26 exp with my buff and 8% hit. havent had threat issues yet. its not hard to keep those stats up. i agree tho never drop mastery for exp or hit. characters name is Lightbringah on wildhammer us horde side also im not super geared but i can tank bwd and bot the first couple of bosses each considering im an alt. in the end i guess its up to you as a tank and your guild as a raid unit to decide whats better

[slosh]

What part was hard to understand? Make sure all items have mastery and parry, real simple.

Because this advice isn't universal and will lead to decreased survivability.

I'm not familiar with non-pally tanks, but we pallies want parry% = dodge% so as to reduce diminishing returns as much as possible.

Mastery > Dodge/Parry > Expertise > Hit is how pallies go. And dodge/parry should be equal.

With the current itemization, every piece that has parry on it I've had to reforge to dodge or mastery. Anything with Expertise/Hit goes to Mastery first, then dodge. Without reforging my gear at one point had parry 5% higher than dodge. After reforging to dodge, I gained avoidance because of the reduce diminishing returns on parry.

[Dubzil]

y is everyone considering parry > dodge? from what i understand parry only reduces teh damage u take whereas dodge u avoid the damage. in my veiw that would make dodge better. but y am i seeing people say parry > dodge

For a warrior, Parry is better than dodge because we have a tallent that gives us a 10% boost in critical strike and critical block chance after a successful parry.. Also, parry fully avoids damage.

I started off completely dropping all hit and exp, reforged all to mastery/parry/dodge where possible. No threat issues what-so-ever. As long as the class (i can only really speak for warriors as I play one, but I've seen pallies and DKs do same reforging with absolutely no threat issues) knows how to do the maximum threat rotation then there is almost no need for Hit and Expertise.

I have started to stack hit more now since I'm a sole interrupter on one of the pillars for nef. Once 4.1 is out I will be swiftly dropping all of that hit and go back to survivability.. Other than interrupts, there is no need for hit. If you are having threat issues you are probably not doing your rotation correctly.

[slosh]

To the original poster, what are the aggro levels on your DPS? Cause if they're never above 90% then your tanks can afford to drop some hit/expertise.

And I'm talking about proper pulls here too. Ones where DPS don't attack the boss the second the fight starts and you get proper misdirects.

[Tholyn]

Good luck with that.

Typo is a typo is a typo

Because this advice isn't universal and will lead to decreased survivability.

I'm not familiar with non-pally tanks, but we pallies want parry% = dodge% so as to reduce diminishing returns as much as possible.

Mastery > Dodge/Parry > Expertise > Hit is how pallies go. And dodge/parry should be equal.

With the current itemization, every piece that has parry on it I've had to reforge to dodge or mastery. Anything with Expertise/Hit goes to Mastery first, then dodge. Without reforging my gear at one point had parry 5% higher than dodge. After reforging to dodge, I gained avoidance because of the reduce diminishing returns on parry.

Thats why I specified my advice was from a warrior standpoint in my original post.

[JackalopeSpam]

I'm not as sure for druids, but as far as the other tanks go Mastery is win. Definitely get Mastery on the gear, and if you can't reforge something to it. There is a lot of debate as to the hit/expertise vs avoidance. Seems at the moment most are considering avoidance is greater as threat is mostly trivial past the first 30 seconds because of vengeance (and in heroic, you ramp it up fast). However, since you are talking about Halfus, only 1 tank need worry about initial aggro/threat as all other targets are mostly ignored (aside from splash damage). So avoidance is going to be much better than hit/expertise.

[Kagonos]

They're wrong. Period.

IMO you should find a new guild with players actually interested in being part of a team. Seems like most of your tanks aren't team players, they're treating the game like they're the only ones that matter.

tl;dr Those tanks are bads. Find a new guild.



No, all tanks should currently be gearing for survival. No tanks need threat stats atm. Some will benefit from them more than others, but all tanks should be going out of their way to increase their TTL.

I love that you did a tl;dr on 2 sentences... But what you say is true. You really should talk to your GM (unless he's one of the baddie tanks) about these goons who simply refuse to face the reality of threat these days. Hit and Expertise are the stats you should reforge away into mastery or an avoidance stat. The way I have been reforging dodge and parry is to look at my current rating and reforge into the stat that has a lower rating. It's a very small difference, but it is a way of getting the most from each stat with diminishing returns in mind. (And I am not talking about a warrior with re: to parry and dodge, but paladins and DKs.)

[noteworthynerd]

We had a Paladin tank back in WotLK who did this same type of thing, always gemmed and enchanted hit/expertise when he could; passed on upgrades because they didn't have hit/expertise; and aimed to cap both. He and I were the two OTs (both Paladins), and our MT was a Warrior who knew what he was doing.

The other Paladin and I always remained at about the same gear level, but while he stacked hit/expertise, I did what was suggested at the time and stacked stamina. The warrior and myself were constantly 5-10k higher health than the other paladin was, and because we took gear based on avoidance, we were always getting hit less than he was. Sure, his threat was marginally better, but threat was never an issue in WotLK, getting hit hard and often (that's what she said) was.

I'm not raiding at the moment, but I like to keep up on Paladin tanking news (www.rhida.ch ftw), and it seems that stacking hit/expertise hasn't changed much... Stam (until the soft-cap), mastery and parry/dodge are much better stats.

TL;DR- Stick with what you're doing, you're in the right here. The ONLY tanks who should worry about hit/expertise are MAYBE DKs, to ensure that their Death Strikes hit. Suggest the website I linked above to them, as well as http://wow.joystiq.com/category/paladin/, hopefully when they hear it from an expert, they'll see the light.

[Rylon]

DK's don't need hit/exp capped either. While you may miss DS a bit more often, you gain more benefit from additional mastery/avoidance. Plus, even if you miss a DS, the runes are refunded so you just need to wait the GC to try again.

[slosh]

Thats why I specified my advice was from a warrior standpoint in my original post.

When you said, "As a general rule of thumb" I didn't take that as warriors specific. I, and I think others, interpreted that in a broader sense.

[Dubzil]

We had a Paladin tank back in WotLK who did this same type of thing, always gemmed and enchanted hit/expertise when he could; passed on upgrades because they didn't have hit/expertise; and aimed to cap both. He and I were the two OTs (both Paladins), and our MT was a Warrior who knew what he was doing.

The other Paladin and I always remained at about the same gear level, but while he stacked hit/expertise, I did what was suggested at the time and stacked stamina. The warrior and myself were constantly 5-10k higher health than the other paladin was, and because we took gear based on avoidance, we were always getting hit less than he was. Sure, his threat was marginally better, but threat was never an issue in WotLK, getting hit hard and often (that's what she said) was.

I'm not raiding at the moment, but I like to keep up on Paladin tanking news (www.rhida.ch ftw), and it seems that stacking hit/expertise hasn't changed much... Stam (until the soft-cap), mastery and parry/dodge are much better stats.

TL;DR- Stick with what you're doing, you're in the right here. The ONLY tanks who should worry about hit/expertise are MAYBE DKs, to ensure that their Death Strikes hit. Suggest the website I linked above to them, as well as http://wow.joystiq.com/category/paladin/, hopefully when they hear it from an expert, they'll see the light.

In WOTLK he probably was doing it correctly and you/the warrior were doing it incorrectly.. WOTLK had a completely different raiding scheme: If you could take 2-3 hits, you didn't need any more survivability, healers could flash heal you back up to full HP just fine so tanks maximizing their DPS output was a big help for the encounters.

This has changed now since healers don't flash heal you to full HP anymore and they don't have unlimited mana anymore. Now you have to help them by mitigating as much damage as possible so they can slowly heal you back up and not go OOM in the process.

[Angrybutcher]

That's not quite right. Keep in mind all DKs get +9% 'free' hit now, so our special melee attacks won't miss.

We get free 9% spell hit, not melee hit.

Myself am mostly ignoring Expertise, but still shooting for close to 17% spell hit as I am required to interrupt reliably. Come 4.1, my hit goes bye-bye.

[nikat]

In WOTLK he probably was doing it correctly and you/the warrior were doing it incorrectly.. WOTLK had a completely different raiding scheme: If you could take 2-3 hits, you didn't need any more survivability, healers could flash heal you back up to full HP just fine so tanks maximizing their DPS output was a big help for the encounters.

This has changed now since healers don't flash heal you to full HP anymore and they don't have unlimited mana anymore. Now you have to help them by mitigating as much damage as possible so they can slowly heal you back up and not go OOM in the process.

Nope, although it was different, not in that sense.

threat really wasn't an issue in WotLK. stam > avoidance > threat, with rare exception. Really tanks should focus on having the right gear/spec for the fights they are going to do that night, there is no 1 answer to every fight.

[Deleted]

How can I make these guys see that they are hindering guild progress because they don't want to be 'corrected', I feel liek unsigning for Tonight's raid because I know it will fail. HELP (.

It seems like you want more advice on how to make them listen to you, rather then advice on how to improve them, you already seem to have the general idea.

If you've spoken to them personally and they don't want to listen, advise their CL or an officer and see if they will listen and try a different approach.

If they are a CL or Officer, then you're probably between a rock and a hard place, as if they don't want to see they're the problem, then they won't. People don't often like being outright told "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.", so try speaking to someone else who's a bit more open minded.

[Harith]

if you are runing 10 mans getting hit in the current patch is a good idea so you don't miss with interupts but next patch even that is gone

when your a warrior tank the extra points your have in what ever can go into threat or utility (sens you have taken all the survivablity talents) and i have gone full into utility and i still kick the threat meters ass (only issue is the first few sek with a frost mage that can't wait for 3 sek) i am at 70-80% of the dps so they are often at like 40-50% threat, it is all about seeing small gaps of min maxing to push it that much harder

so getting threats stats are kinda unneeded so you can tell them (if you are the tank leader) to change there gearing and stop gimping the raid of a kill sens they like big numbers

[Tholyn]

When you said, "As a general rule of thumb" I didn't take that as warriors specific. I, and I think others, interpreted that in a broader sense.

I did say that but the previous line said:

As far as warrior tanks your two biggest stats are going to be Mastery and Parry If you are specced correctly and have 2 pts in "Hold the line"


Regardless i updated my original post to reflect this more clearly.

[MagicBanana]

Edit:

/edit
Pretty clear to me. TBH hit/expertise gearing tanks as well as DPS should be more relaxed. Be prepared to wipe, not beat timer, etc.
Pumping out max possible threat is secondary for a tank. Survival is primary. DPS should be on their toes to do max DPS WITHIN BOUNDS of the threat tank is performing. If every DPS is, say, 10% behind tank threat, holding back, and you can't beat enrage timer, then try to shift a bit more towards threat gear.
But first of all: survive a fight long enough to understand it, learn about it. A dead DPS does 0 dps, a dead tank does 0 threat.

What this guy said. Have your tanks get MDs and have all paladins throw around salvs and BoPs if they are that concerned about their threat.