CtA Will Make Queue Times Worse

[Geekzilla]

People may say "but if everyone is going tank, who goes dps/healer". Thats not the case either, because people are going to run as dps/healer for the same reason they do now. Valor Points.

I agree with you that this is a good change. As for the "but everyone will tank" point, it's not valid to begin with.

This change does not say that tanks get the bags. Whatever the queue needs the most to balance the roles is who gets the bags. If everyone switches to tank, then tanks aren't what the groups are waiting for, and the CTA bags go to heals if that's what the queue needs in order to improve queue times. Heck, it could go to DPS if that's what the queue needs more of. Think of it as load balancing. Pretty useful if done automatically, probably less so with users in the feedback loop. Ideally, we'd reach the point where any of the roles could be the bag recipients at any given time, but I very much doubt we'd reach that level of balance, since there are just more people that prefer to DPS than people that prefer the other two roles.

I'm not worried about a sudden influx of bad tanks. Yeah, it'll be a rough few days till things get sorted out, but the truly bad tanks will figure out that they can't finish a run so being something other than a tank is a better investment of their time. I don't know how long that will take, though.

As for the problem with skipping bosses, it's always been there, and it's been dealt with one way or another. Not many tanks are good enough to solo the last boss of a heroic, so if enough of the group wants the optional bosses, it's going to happen. We had a tank ragequit one time in WotLK because he insisted we skip a boss. The healer and DPS proceeded to down the boss without him.

[Deleted]

The Problem
So, you have a (going off of wowhead statistics) 1.8% chance for Raven Lord, 5% for Hawkstrider, and a .8% for Rivendare's. Those are just the announced mounts, there will be more. The chance of getting a rare mount is the same as from the dungeon, meaning your chance at a mount starts off at a base of 5%, and increases with your chance at every other mount they add. I'm not claiming to be good at math, but let's just say it comes out to 8% with all the others. (And no, that chance does not decrease because the mounts are BoA, getting the Hawkstrider does not mean you can't get it again)
Aside from Rivendare's you could only try for these mounts once per day. Instead, you can now queue as many times as you desire, refuse to do any non-mandatory bosses for those who still need gear(whom are the people who wanted shorter queues in the first place), bumrushing to your reward.

actually that's not correct ...
if you have a chance of 5% on mount A ...
and a 1.5% chance on mount B ...
you DO NOT have a total chance of 6.5% on a mount ...
you maybe get both mounts (A and B) in the same bag ... which is very very very rare ... but still ... you max chance of getting one (out of two) mounts will still be 5% ...

[Mad_Murdock]

Did you read my post? It is going to hurt those dps who still needed it, and hurt a very, very, very, very strong part of the game - achievements.

Tanks and groups have been skipping bosses for a while, they were already skipping bosses back in January. I'll still take faster ques, which will still be faster JPs, faster Vendor gear.
I don't follow at all how this is going to hurt achievements or how achievements are a 4x very strong part of the game ? Did people not play this game before achievements were introduced ?

[Sanctioned]

There's no way that this change will actually decrease the wait times. I have no clue why anyone would think that. I don't like the change but whatever Blizz thinks will help the queue times they'll do. And probably fail at.

[Roguesoldier]

Yea, too much text, although I did read most of it, and your assumptions are incorrect. Queues will be shorter, and runs will be quicker, also making queues shorter. Your argument is void.

And it also sounds like you're one of the people wanting to be a "special snowflake". You would honestly be bent over someone getting a mount that any lvl 85 toon can farm on their own? Even though the time commitment and odds by any one individual for getting a mount through CTA or the related instances would be roughly the same?

Queues for tanks are currently 3 seconds. Dps have to wait 26 minutes, or 2160 seconds. How many tanks do you think that they can possibly drag in to make queues NOTICEABLY shorter? Add in the fact that there are now tanks queuing who don't have a real desire to tank?

Your "special snowflake" argument has some, in my opinion, dumb logic. There a Feats of Strength in the game that are, literally, in the game for people to be "special snowflakes". Of course they're really just people who...achieved a feat of strength! It is no longer a feat of strength if they get it for DOING THEIR JOB.
The run time of an old instance is definitely shorter, but, in 9/10 cases, it's once a day. You were saying?

[TheyCallMeTarzan]

So what do you mean? Doesn't matter that the item itself is BoP when its container is BoA and can be mailed.

[Deleted]

I'd like to start this by saying that the following will most likely come off as me being single minded and not willing to change my view on this what-so-ever. However, I'd really like to know if anything I'm saying is wrong. It's not entirely a rant. I provide what I believe to be a good solution, and provide what I feel are strong reasons why it's "dumb in the first place".

The Problem
So, you have a (going off of wowhead statistics) 1.8% chance for Raven Lord, 5% for Hawkstrider, and a .8% for Rivendare's. Those are just the announced mounts, there will be more. The chance of getting a rare mount is the same as from the dungeon, meaning your chance at a mount starts off at a base of 5%, and increases with your chance at every other mount they add. I'm not claiming to be good at math, but let's just say it comes out to 8% with all the others. (And no, that chance does not decrease because the mounts are BoA, getting the Hawkstrider does not mean you can't get it again)
Aside from Rivendare's you could only try for these mounts once per day. Instead, you can now queue as many times as you desire, refuse to do any non-mandatory bosses for those who still need gear(whom are the people who wanted shorter queues in the first place), bumrushing to your reward.


What WILL Happen If You Go Through?
On the topic of dps with long queues
You implemented this to make heroics easier for dps. Those who actually care enough about the time are those who still need the gear. That means that they need "every boss". All of these new tanks won't care about you. Sure, this happened before, but it's idiotic to say that it won't happen a whole hell of alot more often now. So, you now have less of a shot at gear, that sucks, but it's not the only problem. Doing this will make the runs take longer.
This may not be the best comparison, but, wages. You can get a dollar wage increase for the day, but if the price of everything around you quadruples, you're still worse off than before. Sure, you can think, "at least i get an extra dollar to help". But that's a dumb way to think, you should want things to be like they were before at the very least.
This is essentially what dungeon runs will be like. How many times have you gotten a tank that makes you want to just drop group right then and there(because the votekick system is abysmal...). What do you think will happen now that you have "tanks" who don't know who to tank, and honestly don't want to? Not to mention you WILL be seeing your "tanks" in ret gear, in fury pvp, or in boomkin leather. So long as if they are in a tank spec, they can "tank". While you gave us shorter times, you now exponentially increased our chances at not reaching the final boss. You'll have to leave and requeue.

On the topic of the mounts themselves
8% chance per queue. Statistically, one of every 12 tanks who queue will get a rare mount that previously, a fraction of a fraction of the population had. It is not farfetched AT ALL to say that 12 different tanks queue per server, per hour. So, every hour, someone else on your server gets a FEAT OF STRENGTH! These will no longer be feats of strength.
They are feats of "I hit a button, skipped the bosses, DID MY JOB, and got this mount"
People like myself who took time out to go for this mounts, both before and after achievements were implemented, will essentially be losing all that time. I would say that you can make those mounts not award the FoS, but the glamor comes from the mount really...


The solution?
Have two bags, one that comes off your first CtA, which can contain the mounts, and then all the others only have pets and other rewards.

While this may seem stupid because, hey, most tanks stopped queuing after their single Valor Rewards. You need to consider a few things though:
One) You can now get all your valor in one day. This gives you a reason to queue on those other six
Two) There are still other, quality, rewards
Three) If you really want the mounts that bad, get them from where they were originally intended. To echo number two, there are still other rewards
Four) This keeps the integrity of the drop rate of the old once-a-day-mounts(that is, if you choose to solely do it this way. you can actually increase your chances by doing both ways)

you have missed the points of the mounts, i know people that will grind for months to collect mounts, that will collect badges for weeks to get a silly pet. most of these people are already geared, and what better way of getting geared and good healers n tanks in dungeons than by offering them the chance of a rare mount to there collection

its a great idea your just missing the point

[sabbath032]

Sorry but 1% chance at 3 different mount drops does not equal 3%. You're acting like all these percentages stack and mounts will be raining from the sky. (Acknowledging being not good at math.)

As for the "this makes runs take longer" part: Yes, if you have an tank not geared for tanking. But think of it this way - if you are a DPS concerned with skipping bosses that may potentially drop your loot, there is probably a decent chance an undergeared tank may want to do those bosses for upgrades for themselves to make their job easier. Worst case scenario is you get a geared tank who finishes the instance faster, which gets you JP faster, which gets you gear faster. Either way you get things faster than a 40 minute queue.

I will say the idea of having it linked to the valor points though is interesting. Capping the chance at a mount to 1 bag per day or per valor queue seems reasonable, and similar to other events like Brewfest etc.

[Milesmilitus]

There's no way that this change will actually decrease the wait times. I have no clue why anyone would think that. I don't like the change but whatever Blizz thinks will help the queue times they'll do. And probably fail at.

And to what do you base this opinion off of? How can it NOT decrease wait times? There are already tons of people saying they will start queueing with their tanks again. The contents of your post suggest that you are one of those people that will complain about anything Blizz does, which of course, begs the question, why are you here then?

[isadorr]

i am hoping that the better geared tanks will come back because they wont want to do every single boss in the instance but get the heroic daily done and over with which will be a real nice change of pace.

[Deleted]

It's exactly the same as it is now, I have tanks that say "skipping most bosses, only here for valor, kick me if u have a problem with it" regardless of whether or not other people need gear, which was everyone, u know what we did? Kicked him, with u predicted increase in tanks it should be a lot faster to requeue with a more or less full group and find a tank, hopefully majority of 'tanks' will realise after being kicked a few times that its not okay to try to tank while in dps gear

[Varabently]

Don't you only get the bag at the end, once per heroic? Like the rewards for doing a random? Who says the bag is from every boss.

[TheyCallMeTarzan]

Depending on how many mounts Blizzard adds to the satchel's loot table, it may easily exceed 5%. If there are 5 different mounts and each mount has a 1% chance to be in the bag, the chance for getting one of the mounts is 1+1+1+1+1 % = 5%. You can't control which mount, and you may get the same mount twice or even three times, but there is a 5% chance that you do get a mount.

[Roguesoldier]

I'm beginning to think people will post a thread like this for every change, regardless of whether their complaint about the change makes any sense.

First, in regards to more tanks skipping optional bosses, I don't know how it is for you, but in my LFD groups(regardless of whether I'm tanking) we almost always skip ALL optional bosses. Unless someone asks very politely and very specifically for a particular boss, we're just doing the minimum to finish the run as quickly as possible. Without completely removing the optional bosses, I don't think my LFD groups could actually skip them more often. So this is a non-issue.

Second, in regards to bad tanks, no, it really won't increase the number of bad tanks. It will increase the number of tanks period. The ratio of bad tanks to good tanks will stay the same as you will also be getting raid some raid tanks coming back to randoms that have otherwise been skipping them, just as you will be getting some tanks that have no business tanking. The difference is, the garbage tanks will quickly realize they aren't finishing any more dungeons than you are, and either gear up to be capable of getting the rewards, or quit tanking again. This isn't going to create some surge in incompetent tanks. So again, this is a non-issue.

All this change will do is encourage more people that are capable of tanking, to actually tank. Which is the goal. So I applaud Blizzard for making this change. I was getting tired of trying to kill a half hour waiting in the queue every day, and I may even start bringing my tank out again too.

It is really idiotic to believe that the new tanks who queue, who are in 9/10 cases don't want to be tanks, will be better than the current ones who in 9/10 cases DO want to be tanks.

actually that's not correct ...
if you have a chance of 5% on mount A ...
and a 1.5% chance on mount B ...
you DO NOT have a total chance of 6.5% on a mount ...
you maybe get both mounts (A and B) in the same bag ... which is very very very rare ... but still ... you max chance of getting one (out of two) mounts will still be 5% ...

You're going about it wrong. They said that the mounts have the same drop chance as their respective instances. Hawkstrider is 5% from its instance. That means you have a 5% chance of getting ONLY the hawkstrider. But you also have a shot at others, otherwise you would only get the Hawkstrider. I'm not sure how you factor those others in, but the chance does increase

Sorry but 1% chance at 3 different mount drops does not equal 3%. You're acting like all these percentages stack and mounts will be raining from the sky. (Acknowledging being not good at math.)

I never said this, read above for how you need to go about it.

[Appletini]

Assuming you can only get one mount per bag, the chance of getting a mount is not additive.

The real issue with your post is that the "problem" you're talking about isn't actually a problem related to CtA. People already rush through the content and skip bosses without the CtA incentive.

If you want to do a boss that's getting skipped, ask the party to do it. If the group is willing but the tank isn't, vote kick him. If the group as a whole doesn't want to, well, blame the democratic vote system, not the CtA.

[Gahgoots]

Queues for tanks are currently 3 seconds. Dps have to wait 26 minutes, or 2160 seconds. How many tanks do you think that they can possibly drag in to make queues NOTICEABLY shorter? Add in the fact that there are now tanks queuing who don't have a real desire to tank?

Your "special snowflake" argument has some, in my opinion, dumb logic. There a Feats of Strength in the game that are, literally, in the game for people to be "special snowflakes". Of course they're really just people who...achieved a feat of strength! It is no longer a feat of strength if they get it for DOING THEIR JOB.
The run time of an old instance is definitely shorter, but, in 9/10 cases, it's once a day. You were saying?

FoS are for special snowflakes? I did not know that. Your argument is completely correct now. /eye roll
So people who ran Mag Terrace at the appropriate level weren't "doing their job"? Talk about dumb logic...

So, as I was saying, and please re-read my post, I edited it and it should educate you a bit more. You can run each instance once per day, so depending on the number of mounts available, multiple that by the number of instances. Let's say there's 8 mounts, so that's 8 runs. You'd have to do more than 8 CTA runs to exceed your chances of getting a mount (assuming a 1% chance in both cases). Again, it's not much of a different commitment just to get a mount that anyone can get.

Seriously, stop whining.

[xile]

Just like many other items of this nature, you can turn off auto loot and check what is in the bag. The contents do not change when mailed.


First off, I do. I also have a raid geared healer and heroic raid geared dps.
I think you don't understand the problem. I shouldn't have to tank if i honestly don't want to. However, i do tank at least once a day.
I would take that gamble, because, it will, in all honesty, come out be better the old way 99% of the time. Just wait is all I can really say


I too have an alt tank that I would argue I'm good at. While maybe, over a long period, those queuing as tanks who shouldn't be, will eventually become better tanks. This will take a very long time, I mean afterall, they didn't start tanking because they want to learn, they want the loots. Plus, someone queuing in non-tank gear, generally isn't in there to get tank gear. They want to get in and get out with their rewards. Period.


Did you read my post? It is going to hurt those dps who still needed it, and hurt a very, very, very, very strong part of the game - achievements.

Three problems with your post. A. boss skipping happens constantly i've done the extra bosses in HoO maybe three times in total on my 4 geared toons i have, and those usually happen when someone asks specificaly. Very few people mind giving up 5 more minutes or so to help someone out so long as they're doing well in the group and ask nicely.

Second off, tanking isn't hard if people usually are a decent dps/healer/tank they will have a general grasps at least and be able to do the other roles competently, this isn't to say they know the other classes up and down but to act as if the simple basic ideas of tank/healer/dps are difficult is reaching at best, being amazing at a class sure takes some time but heroics require far from amazingess to complete with ease. That being said your issue is not with bad tanks, but bad players instead, regardless of whether or not they play a tank or dps, sure they may be slightly better at one but the chances that they are going to be astounding at one and horrible at the other are significantly less than you make seem.

Thirdly, this will make que times faster, you will have more tanks and healers queing and as such dps won't have to wait as long, i know the reason two of my dps are still in very early heroic gear is because i can't stand the 45 minute ques compared to the 1-5 minute healer/tank ques i have. As is now bosses are skipped constantly, don't act like this new system would in anyway effect that because it won't.

[pionock]

That's weird, I didn't realize that giving someone who chose to tank and/or heal a pet or mount that you're only able to farm once a day as a dps had any bearing on your gameplay. I didn't realize someone having something you don't yet have is ruining everything you ever did in the game, my apologies.

Edit: left out a word

[DeanyKong]

All of the points you made are problems that have been in the game since the dungeon finder came out.

[comradesean]

Obviously the OP is just jealous that tanks are getting these rewards. His arguement is so full of holes that he either has a problem with his thought processes or he's just trying to disguise his true feelings about not getting these rewards as a dps.