Better balance for Firelands and beyond?

[Irielle]

This is not a QQ thread but rather one of gathering opinions. With 10 man raids being a bit over tuned and reliant on classes for certain things (yes there are work arounds but it is a gigantic pain in the ass); do you think Firelands +beyond will bring more balance in between 10 and 25 man raiding? To be clear this is not a 'omg 10 is so much harder than 25 and visa versa debate'. I would love to truly see the promise of both sizes being of equal difficulty fulfilled, but is that something near impossible? What are your thoughts?

Edit: I am speaking in terms of heroics, not normal modes. Thanks

[Resentful]

Balance in ma raids? I'll say unlikely

[Kralljin]

it was obvious that 10man will be harder than 25man, simply because in 25man you can easily do a Line Up change (for example, you take 3-4 tanks)
while in 10man you will probably reach the enrage timer.

I don't think that 10man and 25man will be balanced, 25man can easier compensate the Loss of a Healer / Dps.

[nikat]

I actually consider the current tier pretty well balanced. Not saying entirely so, but there are fights that benefit 10m and some that benefit 25m.

Each raid just has different issues to contend with as well, which makes it pretty much impossible for perfect balance between them,

[Khallynos]

I actually consider the current tier pretty well balanced. Not saying entirely so, but there are fights that benefit 10m and some that benefit 25m.

Each raid just has different issues to contend with as well, which makes it pretty much impossible for perfect balance between them,

This. I say just leave it at keeping some fights easier on 10m and some easier on 25m because it would be impossible to have them even close to balanced for every fight without totally facelifting fights.

[roblina]

They're well balanced imo. Bare in mind that a significant part of 25s is that you will have some members who are not as strong as others, and it's harder to manage everyone and find space for them (when spreading within healer range). To compensate, numbers wise they have to be slightly easier than 10s, which makes the difficulty the same.

Big big pro guilds however suffer from the above much less, they don't have 5+ slackers as they pick the best from a massive pool of applicants so the net result is first kills will go to the great 25man guilds. If 10s were any easier, for the average guild level, they would suddenly be too easy.

TLDR: 25s are designed to have a few slackers, Paragon wannabe guilds don't have these so it's slightly easier.
For normal to decent level guilds, it's balanced well.

[Deleted]

I have to say that I doubt getting 25m = 10m in terms of difficulty for each fight is possible. As an above poster said, I'm quite happy that the "balance" is that some fights are easier on 10m, and some are easier on 25m.

[Zixen]

I think it all depends how they go forward and what kinds of mechanics they build. For example 4.1 with tanks becoming trusted interrupters will help out in H:10m by giving 10s that little extra breathing space in terms of number of interrupters in a raid. So if they build out mechanics around interrupting then yes that will be balanced a bit better.

In all honesty though I don't see them being able to have a significant impact here unless they were to fundamentally shift their model of having the exact same mechanics in 25s as in 10s. There's only so much you can do with dmg/health scaling when raid floor space is the difficulty (H:Al'Akir 25's) or fights are significantly easier if you have this exact class (Rogue/H:V&T 10m).

Unless they made some fundamental change that forced raids to have the same % compositions they'll have difficulty scaling because a H:10m standard team is 20% Tanks, 30% Healers, 50% DPS while a standard 25m is 10% tanks, 25-30% Heals, and 60%-65% DPS. I think they'll continue to tweak things but the fundamental difference in raid size (1/25th your raid kiting vs 1/10 your raid kiting) means unless they design different mechanics for 10s and 25s there will never be a perfect balance.

[Wilderness]

This tier is relatively well balanced, and probably about as balanced as you can be. However, that is only now after all the tweaking, tuning, nerfing, and bug fixing. I do not expect that at release they will achieve a good balance between 10s and 25s but I sincerely hope they are much closer at the release of T12 than they were at the release of T11 or at least they move faster to address some of those issues.

[Irielle]

Some good points in here. I would like to point out though that things did not become even somewhat balanced until the round of 'nerfs' that went out. I realize its hard to get things 'perfect' out of the gate, but one can wish. Zixen I think you made a great point about the interrupts. The changes to those def. will help. I do not agree that encounters are or should be balanced around 25 man having 'slackers' as I can tell you 10 man has zero room for error. In 99% of cases if one person dies the fight is over. Not true of 25man to any extent. Although things may not ever be perfectly balanced having some fights easier on 10 than 25 and visa versa really saddens me.

[beingmused]

I actually consider the current tier pretty well balanced. Not saying entirely so, but there are fights that benefit 10m and some that benefit 25m.

Each raid just has different issues to contend with as well, which makes it pretty much impossible for perfect balance between them,

You're absolutely right. 10s received a round of nerfs that put them more or less in line. You still have your H-Al'Akirs (way tougher on 25s than 10s), and your Sinestras (vice versa). Even fights that are more or less the same difficulty overall, still are wildly different in terms of strats and which parts of the fights are difficult. That is inevitable.

[.Aen]

It should be harder in 10. It is much harder to get 25 raiders online than 10.

[Irielle]

It should be harder in 10. It is much harder to get 25 raiders online than 10.

Not denying the fact that finding 25 competent people is a bit more daunting, but basing the difficulty of raids around that is retarded. Have you taken into the fact the lack of class options in a 10man or that if one person is AFK for some reason it can be severely detrimental to your raid? From that point of view 25 man is a luxury.

[Sansnom]

It should be harder in 10. It is much harder to get 25 raiders online than 10.

This is irrelevant. The difficulty should be due to the number of players in the raid, not the difficulty in finding them for your raid.

[Linkedblade]

There's Pro's and Con's for both!

10 Pro's:
-Fewer people to gather

10 Con's:
-Lower Margin of Error for raiders
-More reliant on Compisition
-Sometimes Overtuned Encounters

25 Pro's
-Higher Margin of Error for raiders
-Less Reliant on Compisition

25 Con's:
-More People to gather
-Sometimes Overtuned encounters

[ttkyle]

It should be harder in 10. It is much harder to get 25 raiders online than 10.

That's a really dumb reason.

[Tharkkun]

I think they should error on the side of being too hard when the dungeons are released. It's easier to nerf content and allow more people to kill things than buff it and piss off and/or surprise people after they've killed it the prior week.

[Kellenved]

10 man may be harder, but it's also 2 1/2 times harder to find the raiders necessary to push 25 content

[CrunkJuice5]

This tier is relatively well balanced, and probably about as balanced as you can be. However, that is only now after all the tweaking, tuning, nerfing, and bug fixing. I do not expect that at release they will achieve a good balance between 10s and 25s but I sincerely hope they are much closer at the release of T12 than they were at the release of T11 or at least they move faster to address some of those issues.

play a melee dps.this tier isnt "well" balanced.its horribly balanced

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 11:18 PM ----------

10 man may be harder, but it's also 2 1/2 times harder to find the raiders necessary to push 25 content

i dont know,the guild i was in cleared 25 mans in wrath pretty good.sounds like you need to venture outside of your casual guild

[Kellenved]

play a melee dps.this tier isnt "well" balanced.its horribly balanced

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 11:18 PM ----------



i dont know,the guild i was in cleared 25 mans in wrath pretty good.sounds like you need to venture outside of your casual guild

Well we do only raid 3 days a week, but we have 7/13 heroic 25 down

http://www.youtube.com/user/thebreak...1?feature=mhum is my channel - Thanks for the troll comment though.