1. #29821
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Well, a couple of things, Drake...

    The asura have managed to invent gates and golems.
    Gates that allow you to travel between them moderately safely and, more importantly, instantly. Let's see the charr do anything of the sort. And the golems - asura are the only race able to create semi-sentient beings. It's just about the same as creating life. Also, let's not forget the asuran waypoints that everyone can use. Other inventions have originated from the asura genious as well, such as flight and even moreso levitation, refrigeration, and let's not forget GIANT LASER CANNONS. There's also holographic technology, weather-manipulation devices, generators, automated turrets, and you name it. Also, last but certainly not least, we have floating hammocks. Asuran sector's comfort by design!

    Almost every asura invention is a massive failure, and tends to either explode or go horribly awry.
    So does every charr invention until it's perfected, though it takes less experimentation to "perfect" the technology as it's so primitive compared to asuran inventions.

    The asura rely entirely upon incantations and handwavium. If this was taken away, they’d become helpless and vulnerable.
    Couldn't be more inaccurate. While magic is often incorporated into asura technology, there are plenty of inventions which do not rely on it at all. And even when it is, incantations aren't even involved. As for handwavium, or unobtainium as it's more commonly called, nearly all asuran inventions are based on common materials. To say all asuran inventions "rely entirely" on hard-to-get materials is factually incorrect.

    The asura cannot mass-produce, so they have to contract out to other races to build for them (see: the new gate complex in Lion’s Arch).
    Yes, because the asuran waypoints are so rare to come across, aren't they? It is more a fact of very few asuran inventions are made to be mass-produced. Waypoints are mass-produced, because they're intended for it. Asuran weaponry is mass-produced. Golems are mass-produced. All of these have a very high demand in great numbers. Asura gates, not so much - and asura gates are very easy to produce and assemble anyway, it's the tuning and powering that's the hard work, and non-asura aren't able (or allowed, for that matter) to do that.

    They have no ability to work with anything other than stone, and rely upon the charr for their metals (they send expeditions to the Black Citadel to try and figure out how the charr purify metals, but so far have had no luck reproducing it).
    This is funny because previously, they were only able to make their inventions with hard-to-find materials. Now they're only able to use stone. Does that mean stone is one of the rarest materials in Tyria? I smell something fishy, and it ain't a Quaggan. I would also like to point you in the direction of, for a very basic and obvious example, the electricity generators (yeah, so what if charr have almost discovered the secret behind it, we've been using it for ages), which use significant amounts of metal in their construction. And that's just one of many, many examples.

    The asura have no true concept of proper scientific methods (only romanticised mad scientist nonsense), and merely use magic to ape scientific progress. Without magic, they’d be useless.
    Again, as pointed out earlier, magic isn't used in every asura invention. Likewise, very, VERY few asuran inventions are based entirely on magic. In charr society, relying on magic is seen as a weakness, but in asuran society we harbor no such superstitious nonsense. Magic is a tool, not a taboo. Further, a scientific method is a process of systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses. Something asura excel at.

    The asura have no concept of working together, and if you put three ausra in a room, you’d end up with one dead, one blind and dumb, and one swearing innocence.
    Actually, if you get three asura together, you get four opinions. Source here, but may contain spoilers for Eye of the North.

    The asura religion almost borders on scientology in how they’ve tried to actually turn science into a religion.
    The asura have no religion. The Eternal Alchemy is an ideology, a philosophy, that everything is part of a greater connection and everything influences everything else. It is no more a religion than combustion engines.

    And that’s what they believe in. This is what shows their lack of true intellect more than anything. If they had any idea of how proper science works, they wouldn’t be trying to turn it into a system of faith.
    Again, there's no faith, no theology.
    Last edited by Jigain; 2012-09-18 at 11:57 AM.

  2. #29822
    Well the whole theory of the Eternal Alchemy is not proven in any way.
    Asura believe that this is the truth and they try to find evidence, but for now it is not more than a hypothesis mostly based on faith.
    It may not be theism, but a god is not a neccesary component for religion.
    The advantage of the dreamer is that he never has to face the chains of reality.
    Blackhand[EU] - Mistral

  3. #29823
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistral View Post
    Well the whole theory of the Eternal Alchemy is not proven in any way.
    Asura believe that this is the truth and they try to find evidence, but for now it is not more than a hypothesis mostly based on faith.
    It may not be theism, but a god is not a neccesary component for religion.
    Which part of it is based on faith, then?

  4. #29824
    A more appropriate question would be "what part is not?".
    The theory of the Eternal Alchemy has no more substance than creationism.

    Don't think religion like christianity or hinduism. More like buddhism or daoism.
    Last edited by Mistral; 2012-09-18 at 12:25 PM.
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  5. #29825
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistral View Post
    A more appropriate question would be "what part is not?".
    The theory of the Eternal Alchemy has no more substance than creationism.
    And the same wasn't said about combustion engines when that idea was new? Magnetic levitation tracks? A piece of machinery that can calculate complex mathematical problems in a matter of seconds?

    I could go on forever, you know. :P

    faith [feyth]
    noun
    a system of religious belief.

    re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn]
    noun
    a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

    I see little to no correlation between religion and the Eternal Alchemy. The only thing I could agree to is that it's a hypothesis regarding how the universe is structured and works (which is not the same as cause, nature, or purpose), just like the theory of relativity and Copernicus' hypothesis that the earth rotates around the sun.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 02:54 PM ----------

    I would also like to point out that the most advanced and powerful siege equipment available in Tyria is an asuran siege golem. Take that, charr catapults!

  6. #29826
    The difference between Copernicus' Heliocentrism and the Eternal Alchemy, is that the whole asuran society is build around it.
    While the countless krews of the three major colleges of dynamics, synergetics and statics are responsible for many incredible inventions like golemantics and warpgates, their primal purpose is to research and prove the Eternal Alchemy.
    Every single asura devotes its whole life completely to this theory.

    (And to be a little party-pooper: even the offical wiki lists the Eternal Alchemy as the asuran religion. [Link])
    Last edited by Mistral; 2012-09-18 at 01:21 PM.
    The advantage of the dreamer is that he never has to face the chains of reality.
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  7. #29827
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistral View Post
    The difference between Copernicus' Heliocentrism and the Eternal Alchemy, is that the whole asuran society is build around it.
    While the countless krews of the three major colleges of dynamics, synergetics and statics are responsible for many incredible inventions like golemantics and warpgates, their primal purpose is to research and prove the Eternal Alchemy.
    Every single asura devotes its whole life completely to this theory.

    (And to be a little party-pooper: the offical wiki lists the Eternal Alchemy as the asuran religion. [Link])
    It's listed as a template, one that's used for all races. It's not actually saying anywhere "the Eternal Alchemy is a religion" or anything even hinting at that. In fact, if you scroll down to Government, it says that asuran society works by order of krewes rather than governments. By your logic, this would contradict itself as the title of that section of the template is "Government", hence there must be an organized government.

    Also, where do you get the preposterous notion that "every single asura devotes its whole life completely to this theory"?

  8. #29828
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikazig View Post
    I just wanted to share this amazing video with you all.

    Bahahahah that's the greatest video ever... and perfectly explains Kormir and her awfulness to anyone that didn't play GW1.

  9. #29829
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    In fact, as I just recalled, there's a discussion in Lion's Arch between two NPCs, a human and an asura, where the human is asking for directions to a temple (or something along those lines), which leads into a theology discussion, which in turn leads the asura to state, clearly (I think these were the exact words), "the Eternal Alchemy is a science, not a religion". Note the last three words.

  10. #29830
    Bloodsail Admiral Rhywolver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistral View Post
    Well the whole theory of the Eternal Alchemy is not proven in any way.
    Asura believe that this is the truth and they try to find evidence, but for now it is not more than a hypothesis mostly based on faith.
    It may not be theism, but a god is not a neccesary component for religion.
    The whole Eternal Alchemy alway reminds me of Rosicrucianism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism ).
    As far as I remember, the funeral of Vekk's father in GW1 was close to such rituals.

  11. #29831
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    It's listed as a template, one that's used for all races. It's not actually saying anywhere "the Eternal Alchemy is a religion" or anything even hinting at that. In fact, if you scroll down to Government, it says that asuran society works by order of krewes rather than governments. By your logic, this would contradict itself as the title of that section of the template is "Government", hence there must be an organized government.
    Well "they don't have a government" is an answer for this template. The "asura don't have a religion" part is missing in the religion template, which is an sall but important difference. (sylvari on the other hand are specifically described as agnostics, despite their worship-like relationship with their tree)

    Also, where do you get the preposterous notion that "every single asura devotes its whole life completely to this theory"?
    Okay I should specify: every single asura living in the asuran society devotes his life to the Eternal Alchemy. Be it aware or unaware.
    Because that's what the Colleges are for. Researching and if possible proving the Eternal Alchemy.
    And every known Asura is part of a College as far as we know...

    It doesn't even matter if they think it's a religion. Mostly because that's an semantic question.
    Like many sect members don't see themself as sect members.
    The advantage of the dreamer is that he never has to face the chains of reality.
    Blackhand[EU] - Mistral

  12. #29832
    Half that list is "If you take away their magic, bad things happen". For something trying to decide superiority, it feels lacking, petty. The fact is, their magic is not gifted to them by the human-gods, so fear of it disappearing is weak and unwarranted. They've found a scientific theory that binds all things and shapes the way they affect the world around them. People in our current world felt the same with sub-atomic particles, little itty bitty things to small to see that are supposed ti shape our entire understanding.

    The fact that some of this is meta-physics does not detract drom their approach.

    apart from inter-legion bashing (lol "Ash Trash"), I do agree on the Charr being a unit to achieve greatness on the race's actual iterative and cooperative process, whereas the isolationist, and saboteur tendencies of Asuran rivals holds back any sort of real forward momentum. The Charr push invention for necessity. They need bigger guns, they need a mobile fortress wall, or resonators to contain/disperse Adelbern's legacy, and ways to accomplish these needs will surface. The Asura? They invent for the sake of hoping to hit it off big and be famous, in the hopes that… people brag about their intellect like they do for Norn heritage? It's almost WarCraft Goblins except without money being their driving force, and that's… sad.
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  13. #29833
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistral View Post
    Well "they don't have a government" is an answer for this template. The "asura don't have a religion" part is missing in the religion template, which is an sall but important difference.
    That's an argumentum ad ignorantiam, or an argument from ignorance. It's a logical fallacy to assume that something is true because there's no evidence to suggest it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistral View Post
    Okay I should specify: every single asura living in the asuran society devotes his life to the Eternal Alchemy. Be it aware or unaware.
    Because that's what the Colleges are for. Researching and if possible proving the Eternal Alchemy.
    And every known Asura is part of a College as far as we know...
    No... maybe you should learn a bit more about asura lore before you start deciding what they're all about. If you look into it, a college is a college. It's a learning institute. It has nothing to do with "researching and proving the Eternal Alchemy". In fact, the colleges have absolutely nothing to do with the Eternal Alchemy, other than being part of the interconnectivity between everything in the world. A college is a place, a community, where young asura learn things. To claim it's something else is just... misguided nonsense. Sorry, but it is. It's no more different than a college or school in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistral View Post
    It doesn't even matter if they think it's a religion. Mostly because that's an semantic question.
    Like many sect members don't see themself as sect members.
    Again with the logical fallacies. You really ought to consider that they may not see themselves as sect members because... there is no sect!

    Gods, sometimes it feels like I'm debating the moon landing conspiracy theory all over again...

  14. #29834
    ... This thread is bigger than Xbox. o_o

  15. #29835
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFeyLife View Post
    ... This thread is bigger than Xbox. o_o
    And has much, much more garbage. :P

  16. #29836
    Titan DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    The asura rely entirely upon incantations and handwavium. If this was taken away, they’d become helpless and vulnerable.
    Couldn't be more inaccurate. While magic is often incorporated into asura technology, there are plenty of inventions which do not rely on it at all. And even when it is, incantations aren't even involved. As for handwavium, or unobtainium as it's more commonly called, nearly all asuran inventions are based on common materials. To say all asuran inventions "rely entirely" on hard-to-get materials is factually incorrect
    What? "Handwavium" is "hand waving" not "lolhardtofindmaterials"

    You know, lifting a staff up to the air and moving it about. Magic.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give into your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  17. #29837
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    What? "Handwavium" is "hand waving" not "lolhardtofindmaterials"

    You know, lifting a staff up to the air and moving it about. Magic.
    "The fictional material handwavium is sometimes referred to in situations where the solution requires access to a substance that is physically impossible to create as it defies physics but is convenient to solving a problem in the story. (See also unobtainium, which would probably be possible to create, but only by a great deal of research, development, time, effort, or money, none of which the speaker intends to explain at the moment.)"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handwaving

    "The term handwavium (suggesting handwaving) is another term for this hypothetical material, as are buzzwordium, impossibrium, phlebotinum, and flangium."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium

  18. #29838
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    And has much, much more garbage. :P
    Now I'm curious... but there's almost 1500 pages... :x

  19. #29839
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    That's an argumentum ad ignorantiam, or an argument from ignorance. It's a logical fallacy to assume that something is true because there's no evidence to suggest it isn't.
    This is true enough. It means nothing for the sake of this discussion and has no worth as argument.
    No... maybe you should learn a bit more about asura lore before you start deciding what they're all about. If you look into it, a college is a college. It's a learning institute. It has nothing to do with "researching and proving the Eternal Alchemy". In fact, the colleges have absolutely nothing to do with the Eternal Alchemy, other than being part of the interconnectivity between everything in the world. A college is a place, a community, where young asura learn things. To claim it's something else is just... misguided nonsense. Sorry, but it is. It's no more different than a college or school in the real world.
    It sure starts as an learning institute, but they never leave. It seems to be more like a political party for grown ups, even at the Arcane Council there is a strict separation of the 4 colleges. (Inquest beeing the 4th)
    For the "the colleges have absolutely nothing to do with the Eternal Alchemy" part...
    "Asuran life is built around the research of the Eternal Alchemy - the asura join one of three massive colleges dedicated to this research."
    End of the Synergetics motto: "We devoutly research the true nature of the Eternal Alchemy." Yeah no connection at all.
    Looks like I'm not the only one who has to "learn a bit more about asura lore"... okay that was cocky but you started with this level.
    Again with the logical fallacies. You really ought to consider that they may not see themselves as sect members because... there is no sect!
    I don't see any "logical fallacies" here. I was just pointing out that a quote of a single random asura is not relevant to an debate if believing in the existance of the Eternal Alchemy could be considered a religion.
    The advantage of the dreamer is that he never has to face the chains of reality.
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  20. #29840
    Titan DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    As it is, the asura inventing gate technology happened hundreds of years ago. Don't know of a single major invention since then that's actually been all that great.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give into your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

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