4 piece set bonus for holy pallys good now?

[eternalwhitemoon]

If this is the case, why are you using Power Torrent?
You contradict yourself.

Because I like the dual nature of it; synching it with DP for more mana returns, or just allowing it to proc for more throughput depending on the specific situation. However, let's please not turn this into a PT vs Heartsong thread; this thread is about tier.

I am a 10-man Heroic raider, and as such, my raid group lacks the mana cooldowns of 25. This does impact my choice.

[Sunseeker]

Depends on what you're shooting for. IMO, if you're planning on critting a lot through Holy Shock, then the added crit and mastery from the Tier set will be beneficial, and so will the 4-piece bonus(as you'll be prioritizing holy shocking every time it's off CD). If your intent is a less crit-reliant setup, then it will be less beneficial.

Personally, I favor the look-alikes over the tier set, but I'm an admitted haste junkie. I will quickly trade out my tier as soon as I can stack more haste as I find crit unreliable and mastery is still, IMO, ineffective, particularly if you're in a fight with a disc-priest.

[Atrea]

Because I like the dual nature of it; synching it with DP for more mana returns, or just allowing it to proc for more throughput depending on the specific situation. However, let's please not turn this into a PT vs Heartsong thread; this thread is about tier.

I am a 10-man Heroic raider, and as such, my raid group lacks the mana cooldowns of 25. This does impact my choice.

When someone says, "Pepsi is better than Coca Cola", and you see them walking down the street with a Coke Zero in their hand, one asks these sorts of questions.

It strikes me as an odd contradiction. Here you are, on one hand, advocating sacrificing valuable stats for Spirit gains, but on the other hand, are not utilizing one of the basic enchants by which to do this. You're also utilizing improper terminology - specifically, your references to throughput.

I'm therefore forced to conclude that you really have no idea what you're talking about.

[eternalwhitemoon]

When someone says, "Pepsi is better than Coca Cola", and you see them walking down the street with a Coke Zero in their hand, one asks these sorts of questions.

It strikes me as an odd contradiction. Here you are, on one hand, advocating sacrificing valuable stats for Spirit gains, but on the other hand, are not utilizing one of the basic enchants by which to do this. You're also utilizing improper terminology - specifically, your references to throughput.

I'm therefore forced to conclude that you really have no idea what you're talking about.

You know, just because I don't have Blackwing's Bane doesn't make me stupid.

I didn't say Pepsi was better than Coke--I said I PREFER one to the other. What if I liked both Coke Zero AND Pepsi? I might then wish to balance my drinking time between Coke Zero and Pepsi.

I explicitly stated that it depends on the individual. "The decision is not just about you, but about how you and your heals fit within your raid environment. " I also made an effort to stress that my personal experience dictated that it was a good choice for me. I worked very hard to avoid brash generalizations such as you have just made.

I would also like to point out that Diamondtear also uses 4-piece and Power Torrent. Does that mean they have no idea what they are talking about?

Also, I'm sorry my "terminology" isn't up to your exacting standards.

[FiveDkp]

4 set is better than normal gear. Get t11 head, shoulders, legs and gloves (calculations were in the paladin mastery thread) reforge everything to haste.
You must have all your off-pieces has haste however otherwise this doesn't really work since u can't reach 1860 haste (haste plateau)

[Deleted]

I would also like to point out that Diamondtear also uses 4-piece and Power Torrent. Does that mean they have no idea what they are talking about?

Many of the top-end paladins will take Power Torrent because it's obviously superior on Sinestra, which is about the only fight they'll be caring about. If I were to defend his logic based on guess work on my part, he uses Power Torrent + off-set pieces for Sinestra and the 4set with the same weapon out of convenience for the rest. If 10man were as loot rich as 25man is that's what I'd be doing, anyway.

[eternalwhitemoon]

Many of the top-end paladins will take Power Torrent because it's obviously superior on Sinestra, which is about the only fight they'll be caring about. If I were to defend his logic based on guess work on my part, he uses Power Torrent + off-set pieces for Sinestra and the 4set with the same weapon out of convenience for the rest. If 10man were as loot rich as 25man is that's what I'd be doing, anyway.

By this time, Diamondtear has done 13 H Al'Akir kills. I'm sure the same sword has dropped more than once. If this was the case, there's no reason they wouldn't have a weapon with each. At any rate this is complete and total conjecture.

Prior to 4.1 I remember that the same weapon was enchanted with Heartsong. It's my conclusion that they changed it for a specific reason. I am PMing them for any insight they can provide (assuming they even answer a plebian such as myself).

[Zedthetank]

Well I think everyone in here is a capable player.... so onto the discussion about 4pc to11 vs. offsets, your really compairing ~30k mana and 1.5% total healing to ~2.5% more casts per minute. Honestly the choice is personal if you feel comfortable with your current haste / thoroughput and want to have extra mana regen so you can have more mana for emergencies, then pick 4pc if your happy with your mana regen and want more haste /casting speed then take the offpeices since the stats in question are both our most desirable stats there no reason to any bashing going around.

My choice is 4pc, for a few reasons i exclusively raid 10mans and we lack in mana cooldowns such as multiple tides/hymns also there are no innervates to go around. Also my mana has never been a problem nor has my thoroughput in fact i rank highly quiet regularly every expansion so I cant really be bashed about my decsions. I personally just like to have the extra mana sitting around in case my raid healer or support healer needs help. And if we're going to go into powertorrent vs. heartsong like was mentioned earlier, theres no right or wrong for weapon encahnts but technically heartsong > powertorrent. The burst healing from power torrent however *cannot* be ignored in heroic 10mans in my opinion its just too valuable.

Also @Atrea theres no reason to bash someone based on progression. theres no reason for it just because your personally are more progressed then anouther players doesnt make you there superior in every case there are some exceptions but... It just means your raid group is stronger and works well together. Also you have no idea about someones personal life or their raid group that my be effecting their progression, such as an emergency in the family, work or something else. People plays this game to have fun and participate in the community not to have their imput bashed by someone they've never met who is an internet badass.

[Atrea]

I didn't call you stupid, or make any reference to your raiding progress.
That is a straw man argument, and I expected much better out of you.

I said you don't seem to know what you're talking about, because your actions (your enchanting choices) contradict your words.

There are leagues of players who spec 41/0/0 because 'it works for them'. It's just like, their opinion, man.
And while they are completely free to make that mistake, it doesn't make whatever rationale they have for it any more true.

The difference here, is that these players (usually) aren't trying to give their unsound advice to others.

Doing something wrong and then saying "I do it because it works for me!" is just a cop-out.
Besides, if something just 'works for you', why would you advise someone else to do it?

---------- Post added 2011-05-02 at 10:39 PM ----------

I would also like to point out that Diamondtear also uses 4-piece and Power Torrent. Does that mean they have no idea what they are talking about?

Diamondtear can likely articulate why they use 4pc T11 and Power Torrent beyond "because it works for me".
(Which, to me means, "I don't know why I do it.")

[eternalwhitemoon]

I didn't call you stupid, or make any reference to your raiding progress.
That is a straw man argument, and I expected much better out of you.

I said you don't seem to know what you're talking about, because your actions (your enchanting choices) contradict your words.

There are leagues of players who spec 41/0/0 because 'it works for them'. It's just like, their opinion, man.
And while they are completely free to make that mistake, it doesn't make whatever rationale they have for it any more true.

The difference here, is that these players (usually) aren't trying to give their unsound advice to others.

Doing something wrong and then saying "I do it because it works for me!" is just a cop-out.
Besides, if something just 'works for you', why would you advise someone else to do it?

---------- Post added 2011-05-02 at 10:39 PM ----------



Diamondtear can likely articulate why they use 4pc T11 and Power Torrent beyond "because it works for me".
(Which, to me means, "I don't know why I do it.")

I told you why. My answer was not sufficient for you.

If your entire argument is based on "if it's your opinion why are you advising it", then why does this thread even exist?

I know you disagree with my choice, and that's whatever. The OP asked for my opinion, I gave it. I'm not going to be bothered to give out full mathematical details EJ-style because I'm currently at work. The mere act of typing this is quite a bit of multitasking, and I don't feel the need to math stuff out to prove myself to you.

I did not flat out say that you were calling me stupid, although I did infer that (perhaps wrongly) from your post. I simply do not appreciate being argued with in such a fashion. If your first words to me are "you don't know wtf you're doing", I don't take kindly to that and that prevents a productive discussion, because instead of talking about the mechanics, you've gone straight to discussing the merits of the individual at the keys.

[Deleted]

By this time, Diamondtear has done 13 H Al'Akir kills. I'm sure the same sword has dropped more than once. If this was the case, there's no reason they wouldn't have a weapon with each. At any rate this is complete and total conjecture.

Quick look at armory loot history learns that he has one mace from Nef HC with Heartsong and one Sword from AA with PT. The mace from Nef was a few weeks before the first Sinestra kill and the Sword from AA was months after, so the dates add up with my theory.

And then, who's going to say that just because he's in the best guild among the ones that can dedicate their life to WoW implies his every decision is infallible for every paladin out there?

[eternalwhitemoon]

And then, who's going to say that just because he's in the best guild among the ones that can dedicate their life to WoW implies his every decision is infallible for every paladin out there?

I'm not, but clearly the fact that this paladin has dared to do what Atreya deems "unsound" means there must be more to it than my crazy mind. I sometimes enjoy knowing that I'm not the only one to think a particular way, you know.

At any rate, we have faaaaaar derailed the thread. Let's try to steer it back on topic <3

[Deleted]

I agree, we should get back to discussing how 10man should drop sufficient tier drops for me to get a 4set.

[Kakera]

I like hotdogs better than hamburgers but hotdogs are more convenient to make so I made them today instead. Or something?

[eternalwhitemoon]

I agree, we should get back to discussing how 10man should drop sufficient tier drops for me to get a 4set.

Well, Al'Akir now has a chance to drop helm and shoulder tokens, in addition to the normal bosses. There's that, at least.

I like hotdogs better than hamburgers but hotdogs are more convenient to make so I made them today instead. Or something?

What? XD

[Eviljoe]

It's simple. Spirit is a better stat than haste, so you would obviously want more spirit rather than haste (unless of course you are close to meeting the 1859 extra HR tick cap). In addition to the extra spirit you also get a decent amount of crit/mastery (though not as good as haste, still provides throughput), and a small amount of extra int. Get 4 piece.

[Atrea]

You don't appreciate being argued with? You're on the wrong Internet, bud.

[FiveDkp]

It's simple. Spirit is a better stat than haste, so you would obviously want more spirit rather than haste (unless of course you are close to meeting the 1859 extra HR tick cap). In addition to the extra spirit you also get a decent amount of crit/mastery (though not as good as haste, still provides throughput), and a small amount of extra int. Get 4 piece.

Not like crit and mastery is not much better but yeah if you can reach 1860 with 4 piece then you should keep it.

[Deleted]

I think people are weighing haste more than it should. It's only 14.3 % better than crit, and with masteries buff it will be at around the same value as crit (still need more logs to get a more accurate figure). But then T11 have crit on our filler and a nice spirit buff on a spell that's almost cast on cooldown.
Mastery and Crit both provides added throughput as well as efficiency. I've mathed it out. With the stat weights from Nodark on EJ (Int 1.706, Spirit 0.700, Haste 0.663, Crit 0.568, and I've put Mastery on 0.550), haven't calculated the 2p and I've given the 4p 70 % uptime, the items* scores as follows:

Total off set items: 4621.88
Total Tier 11: 4929.40
Tier 11 and off set gloves: 4938.72 (this is the best offset item to get, not chest)

* This is all in 359, since most people asking these questions are wearing 359. 372 will score in the same fashion anyway.
You can check the calculations here.

Btw, that extra tick on HR which is so importent. It only adds 7.14 % more healing to your HR, and with 15 % of total healing done by HR that adds 1 % extra healing. So you shouldn't go all out to get it. It's not that big a deal.

[Valhuur]

If the 4.2 change to innervate would be implemented in current content & gear I would up the value of 4 piece some more, especially in 10 mans. Personally I have put acquiring the set on my wishlist, though I'm tying it to Maloriak dropping his @#$ gloves for ones in his life. Depending on the fight we can cherry pick the optimal gear anyway.

With HR (and LoD) being of relative less value in 10 mans compared to 25, the content you are running should probably be weighed in on this discussion.