How to teach baddies?

[mcpain]

I started a guild with RL friends but am hesitant to take them into a raid because...well...they suck somethimes.

As an example, a good friend plays a rogue and has since BC, but fails at seemingly easy tasks.

At the start of a troll run I'll tell him to interrupt all the time, he knows he should be doing this, but doesn't.
I'll get 50-60+ interrupts a run as a tank, he will get 2
On lynx boss I ask him to shiv the enrage, he knows he should be doing this, but doesn't.
This isn't game-breaking and we still succeed, but it's indicative of general badness.

He's my friend so I should know how to talk to him, but he's the argumentative type.
I suspect I'll tell him how to do something and he'll say "I know what I'm doing I've played this class for x years and you don't even have a rogue"

Is he right? Am i wrong to try to teach him or should I let him learn the importance of kicks by taking him into raids and letting him wipe us over and over?
Is there a way for me to subliminally let him know that fulfilling a spec specific task > dps?

Suggestions welcome.

[bankopf]

People who suck at interrupting duty deserve to die to either way. So either make a deal with the healer to not heal and carry him or find another way to get him constantly killed.

[Lichu]

Yes, try and teach him. Maybe he just isn't aware.
Otherwise: Tell him if he doesn't start kicking and doing his job as a rogue that he won't be coming to anymore raids.
That usually sorts people out right quick.

[Roguez101]

well dont call him a baddie when u explain xD

[Deleted]

a) Do not do his work
b) Just tell him what you think, if he says "I know what I'm doing I've played this class for x years and you don't even have a rogue", make sure to point out that in all those years he failed to learn what Kick does.

And really, i'd roll to another realm. Sometimes it's hard to tell your friends that they suck... so just slip over it.

[Deleted]

It's not your job to teach him, it's the game's job. Unfortunately at the moment it doesn't, and it hasn't since the nerfs towards the end of TBC, and it's got even worse with how you level in cataclysm.

Most pre-80 dungeons are heavily undertuned, and open-world questing NEVER promotes or encourages playing as a group, it infact promotes playing alone! The lack of a need for teamwork, and the lower level dungeon dificaulty sure make for faster leveling, but they don't teach new players shit about how to play, and that's evident in your average RDF group.

If you do something wrong, there should be consequences. Especially in the single player and dungeon content. As opposed to raid content, if you make a mistake in a 5-man, it shouldn't mean death for your group, but it SHOULD mean death for you, and it SHOULD be clear that your death was your own fault.

[Contravene]

You have to listen to me..

My wife played this game a year before me and made friends with a group of people. A rogue oddly enough and she rolled with this person actually in EQ2 first then they played WoW together but always stuck in a rut. I started playing wow in 12/15/2010 and in a couple months I was ready to raid it isn't brain surgery.. As I started never standing in shit anymore EVER it became irritating that this guy who has played MMO for 11 years is always dead.. They won't install GTFO and when I assemble a raid team we fail on Halfus.. 2 or 3 pulls on Baradin Hold for the longest time it took months to make it a one pull deal!!

Finally we started talking to him about it then we excluded him from our raid schedule.. It blew up and he made me guild leader!!! So I made his son guild leader and left his guild.. Last night in my new guild we downed Halfus and then the two dragons on the first pulls you can see in my activity I got the trinket from the drop. The very day I left that fail guild, with a splitting headache, not only did I get past Halfus we downed the two Dragons first pulls.. It was late we only pulled next set twice but people were tired already or we'd have downed them too.

It hurts I am going to miss him and the friendship is gone NOT my choice.. But I can't stop being happy still

[Ashareth]

I started a guild with RL friends but am hesitant to take them into a raid because...well...they suck somethimes.

As an example, a good friend plays a rogue and has since BC, but fails at seemingly easy tasks.

At the start of a troll run I'll tell him to interrupt all the time, he knows he should be doing this, but doesn't.
I'll get 50-60+ interrupts a run as a tank, he will get 2
On lynx boss I ask him to shiv the enrage, he knows he should be doing this, but doesn't.
This isn't game-breaking and we still succeed, but it's indicative of general badness.

He's my friend so I should know how to talk to him, but he's the argumentative type.
I suspect I'll tell him how to do something and he'll say "I know what I'm doing I've played this class for x years and you don't even have a rogue"

Is he right? Am i wrong to try to teach him or should I let him learn the importance of kicks by taking him into raids and letting him wipe us over and over?
Is there a way for me to subliminally let him know that fulfilling a spec specific task > dps?

Suggestions welcome.

To be honest, you are fucked.

From what you say (if it's the whole situation, since we don't know the other version), he don't want to try.
Once you have told them what to watch for, what to do, which skill to use, given them a couple advice on ui (the major problem of WoW retards that refuse to run with nameplates because "it's ugly" *sigh* and don't see casts or adds coming :/) and addons to use (i would say that everybody should have Tidy Plates, and threat plates, but the theme/addon on tidy plates can be a question of taste), teach them how to keybind, and explain to them WHY some things needs to be interupted/avoided/dispelled EVEN if you can bulldozer through them (less damage means less healing, means healer not drinking, dps not dying, and sometimes can allow the group to survive and succeed if a healer crash/die from a mistake or something else).


That being said, your friend seems impervious to that and that is where the problem arise. You can't teach those kind of people without becoming rude and dictatorial.
There is one way : start doing what you are asked to or go on your own. You don't come to raids till you do it properly, you don't run instances regularily with us either till you do (put a "one instance a week rule to check progress". Every other thing doesn't work.

There is a reason why there is so much people in raid gear that cannot perform properly in the LFD : they only do decently with a RL calling EVERY single thing happening on Vent/TS and they KNOW they'll be benched and replaced if they don't do it (because mostly people aren't that hard to replace, specially when people aren't in top progression guilds....).

Now, that way of doing thing have a major drawback, it means going after your friend without being nice, and can be a problem for you.

It's your call.

But as long as it's not sorted, he can't put a foot in a raid, unless it's an "on farm" boss, where he doesn't have shit to do, and preferably a boss that don't have a "random targeted player needs to do x or y FAST or die and/or kill people around", since as a melee if he fails, he can do some damage).

If you and your friend feels like wiping for weeks on some easy boss because of him, have fun with it.

(oh and even being argumentative, if he is playing for 6 years and still don't know how/when to use shiv and/or interupts, he needs to STOP playing fast and go back to the Sims or Helllo Kitty )

[shadowkras]

Paste interrupt logs after every boss fight that requires interruption, so he will see some kind of "charts" that he is failing and will try to improve by himself.

Or use an addon that announces interrupting, that made some of my friends actually take interest in activelly trying to interrupt rather than just doing it once every other wipe. They will get a feeling of gratification when the addon tells the whole party/raid that they are interrupting.
He is a competitive player (even though he sucks), so use that to your advantage.

Raeli's Spell Announcer

[Deleted]

worst thing u can do in wow is to group up with RL ppl...that NEVER ends well...ppl leaving servers or good guilds to play with rl friends then come back qq'ing why did i do that...

[mcpain]

Biggest issue for me is I have to explain everything...everytime.

I mean we did ZA tuesday night and I told him all this stuff.
Then wednesday night it's been forgotten.
I run with guildies so that I don't have to explain everything over and over...

---------- Post added 2011-05-05 at 05:24 PM ----------

Paste interrupt logs after every boss fight that requires interruption, so he will see some kind of "charts" that he is failing and will try to improve by himself.

Or use an addon that announces interrupting, that made some of my friends actually take interest in activelly trying to interrupt rather than just doing it once every other wipe. They will get a feeling of gratification when the addon tells the whole party/raid that they are interrupting.
He is a competitive player (even though he sucks), so use that to your advantage.

Raeli's Spell Announcer

Thanks for the link

[Lackluster]

Your friend is probably a meter whore.
Luckily recount also provides ways of measuring things such as "interrupts done" and "damage taken", these things are at least as important as "damage done" for him. I'd use those meters to show him where he fails and hopefully he'll start whoring a different statistic.

[madyrn]

Everyone has their little "buttons". If this person is really your friend you should know his an how not to push them while helping him along. Men can usually handle criticism from their friends if it's done away from others and in a buddy-like manner. You know this person better than anyone on here so you need to figure out how to explain these things to him without it blowing. If you can't handle helping your friend then you may not be much of a friend.

[Deleted]

Your friend is either a scrub or a meter-whore. Or you just have that sort of a relationship in real life where you criticizing him never occurs and he simply doesn't care for your opinion.

There can be many, many reasons for this. He might just not give a shit, my advice is you find another guild with likeminded people and play with them. Be with your friend in real life instead.

[P4R45171K]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

That's all there is to say about teaching newbies.

[Deleted]

Don't do his job for him then tell everyone you died/boss healed/killed healer because HE didn't interrupt as was told.

Humiliation can work wonders and he can't really complain if he was asked to do it.

[Suikoden]

Well considering he is a friend I'd say it's worth it to teach him. Just don't go overboard and call him bad or hold his hand of course Though sometimes for argumentative people, it can take learning the hard way...

[Nigeldruid]

Be reasonable and don't expect miracles. I.e. on a boss where interrupting is crucial don't do his job for him. You could be on skype or vent (or even sit next to him) and tell him to interrupt, every single interrupt, even if it's a pain. Let him see what happens when he fails to interrupt. Eat the few wipes it takes. At a certain point he'll realize, "If I don't interrupt, we will wipe.". If he still can't manage to interrupt tell him to jsut stand there and ONLY interrupt. Don't dps. Just interrupt. When he gets comfortable with that he can start interrupting. All of a sudden he'll be boss at it.

TL;DR: One step at time and make sure he realize the consequences himself.

[babyback]

It's called learning by doing. If you wont let people fail they can never learn and be good at something

[Asheowyn]

mm I personally think.. If you can, you should. Insert interrupt, dispel, etc.

I've wasted countless of interrupts because the tank, or another dps beat me to the punch. Doesn't mean I didn't try to pummel it, just means I was later than the other guys. Not sure if thats the case here but yeah.. Dont think the failed but executed interrupts show on meters...

How to teach? Just have a talk, stop interrupting yourself and give him a chance to actually land it, despite of latency or other factors. Sometimes the best way to teach is a couple hard fails; which make someone realise how important it is exactly.