[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

I wasn't too impressed with Olly's death. It felt very much like blatant pandering to the crowd that fawns over Jon Snow without any regard for the moral complexities that are supposed to exist in the setting. Olly was very much a victim hardened by war. He saw his parents killed and eaten by the same people Jon chose to embrace. Yes, Jon did it out of necessity but Olly is just a kid. They didn't even have Jon execute him the 'Stark way' and considering that he left the Night's Watch immediately after it simply came across as petty vengeance. Here's hoping he dies for real at some point because I really, really don't want him to be placed on the Iron Throne at the end of the show.

As Tiase rightfuly pointed out.
They conspired and comitted treason, Jon being resurected or not they were going to hang because edd and the Wildlings have control of Castle Black.
Now Jon is alive, therefore it's normal that he carries out the sentence of those who betrayed him.
Olly is yes a child of war, doesn't have the moral aptitude to understand Jon's choice, but he still murdered him. Jon can't let someone that murdered him and betrayed him just live on like nothing happened.

As Tiase also said, it's normal to try and seek revenge on those who wronged you. And in this case we are talking about people that killed you, ended your life. Nothing unusual to try and take revenge.
So add Revenge + Moral justice = Nothing out of the norm here. Anyone in his place would do it. People that say otherwise are liars.

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Oh look, Jon remembered he had balls. Good thing it's fucking cold up at the Wall, no time for fungus and rot to set in!

Now that he saw death (and oblivion) his character will change.

[Deleted]

Xena spun her sword a lot...

Yeah every fight sequence involving the sand snakes is like a flashback to Xena.

[Deleted]

I thought the fight was a quite anemic, nothing like the epic confrontation I envisioned from the books. Apparently if you just spin two swords in your hands you are invulnerable against six enemies.

You can thank D&D for that. Since the show divided from the book it's going downhill. Don't get me wrong it's still an amazing show, and understandable that non-readers love it. But in flashbacks like that, they should hold true to the books.
That being said, even though he didn't have Dawn, I still felt like Dayne was a freaking monster, badass, unbeatable. Even if it was 4v1 he was the one putting pressure on them. Up until the last moment you felt like he was going to destroy everyone. A.Freaking.Monster.

For example Gregor Clegane is supposed to be a beast, but he feels weak next to Dayne, which shows how much impact he had in just one fight (my opinion ofc)

[Tekkommo]

Great episode.

Loved the Tower of Joy scene. I know book readers will be upset he was dual wielding, but as someone who has always played a Fury Warrior, I loved it.

[Deleted]

Have to say, that ToJ fight was pretty bad ass.

Have not seen such ridiculous sword fighting since the phantom menace.

Ah, well now Jon is freed up to go fulfill prophecy, and Bran seems to have the implied ability to affect the past as a seer.

Wonder when they stop fucking about with Mereen and do somethign interesting with that storyline.

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Great episode.

Loved the Tower of Joy scene. I know book readers will be upset he was dual wielding, but as someone who has always played a Fury Warrior, I loved it.

its not so much the dual wielding, its dual wielding two long weapons, its fucking stupid and a total liability. Not to mention it had the whole "none of those attacks were ever aimed at the person" thing that star wars did for ages.

plus what the fuck was that thrust 2ft of steel through the same hole thing.....if you've not hit something vital in the first 6 inches, the next 2ft does nothing except tangle your blade....amazing sword master my arse.

[Deleted]

Is it just me or does everything become so predictable a-la television/popcorn movie-style ? It seems since they abandoned the written word and went on with their interpretation and evolvement of the story the dialogue is not as intriguing or depthful anymore as the sentences/parts they used from the books.
It's really hard to explain for me the "feeling" I get, but it seems to me they're setting up a lot of different things (which are really clear even to the viewer) and just trying to "finish the story" in an easy to understand way.
With all due respect for all the hard work they've done, but things don't "feel" the same as for example S1-2.
As an example the Red Wedding. I hadn't read the books at that point and was blown away because it was so unexpected and you couldn't see it coming from a mile away. Compare that to Ramsey murdering Roose (the entire scene was way to obvious). Jon's resurrection in how the camera changed, how they showed Ghost look at the table etc, it was way to obvious (to me)...
I personally think they want to shorten the entire story this much that only the essential parts remain, but this gives as an effect that certain "set ups" and parts which give depth to the story get lost.
I still watch every sunday/monday and enjoy the show, but the "vibe" of WTF/OMG is not there for me, as opposed to the earlier seasons. Even after watching the previous seasons again I still get that "vibe" after certain scene's which doesn't happen to me after watching this season over.
I'm not here to blame or to bash anything they've done, but this is just a personal reflection of my "feeling" ever since they took that road.
My apologies since English is not my native language if the context/text is not clear, quite hard to explain a "feeling" in a language which isn't yours.

Jon's resurection was the most obvious thing ever. In the books or in the show, no difference. Anyone could sense he was an important character and we haven't seen his true lineage yet, so no surprise there. And that isn't because of the show. Even without the show book readers wouldn't have been surprise to see him rise from the dead.

Nothing will be same compared to season 1 and 2. First reason being that Martin isn't writting for the show, and they are not copying him. Secondly they decided to seperate from the books, giving us horrible shit like the Sand Snakes (the acting is a problem, the shitty lines is another one, the bad DORNE plotline is the final nail in the coffin)
And of course there is the fact that all the "game players" are now all dead or MIA. Therefore there is a shortage of political plots and backstabbing
- Tywin is dead
- Roose is dead
- Varys is in Essos
- Baelish has disappeared for the moment.
- Cersei is her former self, and she doesn't have Tyrion to fight.
- Tyrion is in Essos.
- Doran didn't even have the chance to show how intelligent, patient and cunning he is.

All those facts put together and you have a "void" that needs to be filled. The genral atmoshpere is there, the battles between families is there. But the intelligent, snarky political plots (and lines) have for the moment disappeared.

[Deleted]

Here's a good video on dual wielding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJBEDxh0RQw

[Wewlad]

We all know that dual wielding swords is impractical, but that is sort of the point. Ser Arthur Dayne is so badass that he can wipe the floor while using a disadvantageous fighting style, albeit it can be useful, but few people can utilize it to any good effect. Our friend Dayne being one of them.

And the choreography has never been too realistic. I thought this fight to be less sluggish than usual, TBH.

[Deleted]

I feel sorry for Olly, it is so sad that one of the last things he sees is one of the killers that butchered his village is standing just in front of him (Tormund). I kind of feel sympathy for him, the wildings took everything from him, he only knows them as being murderers and criminals. In the end, his character passes out of the world feeling that justice was never with him, another victim of war, another tragict death in the north.

BTW, good to know Jon didn´t behead any of them, starks don´t have a good history of staying alive when the behead anyone.

[Wilian]

First episode this season that was overall good quality.

There's still the issue of each character having so little time on screen it feels a bit like forced flash show but at least there wasn't facepalmy moments and quite a few relatively good ones.

Well, aside from the fart joke. Just why.

[Deleted]

Arise, Ser Dual of House Wield.

[Gib Lover]

We all know that dual wielding swords is impractical, but that is sort of the point. Ser Arthur Dayne is so badass that he can wipe the floor while using a disadvantageous fighting style, albeit it can be useful, but few people can utilize it to any good effect. Our friend Dayne being one of them.

And the choreography has never been too realistic. I thought this fight to be less sluggish than usual, TBH.

When you are tasked with something theoretically so important that it takes precedent over protecting the king or the heir-prince, using a subpar fighting style probably isn't a good idea. Just use a single sword like an adult, or at the most a parrying dagger.

People in Westeros that can realistically dual wield longswords: Gregor
People that shouldn't: literally everyone else

Fight sucked, scene sucked, rest of the episode was bretty good though.

[ringpriest]

We all know that dual wielding swords is impractical, but that is sort of the point. Ser Arthur Dayne is so badass that he can wipe the floor while using a disadvantageous fighting style, albeit it can be useful, but few people can utilize it to any good effect. Our friend Dayne being one of them.

And the choreography has never been too realistic. I thought this fight to be less sluggish than usual, TBH.

Didn't Miyamoto Musashi recommend fighting with two swords against multiple opponents?

[Gib Lover]

Didn't Miyamoto Musashi recommend fighting with two swords against multiple opponents?

In Western culture, duel wielding was only used in tournaments to show off.
Can't speak to what Miyamoto was talking about, but I would ask if he was talking about duels, what length swords, etc.

[Ghâzh]

We all know that dual wielding swords is impractical, but that is sort of the point. Ser Arthur Dayne is so badass that he can wipe the floor while using a disadvantageous fighting style, albeit it can be useful, but few people can utilize it to any good effect. Our friend Dayne being one of them.

So walk me trough this, how can using an impractical and inferior fighting style be useful? The only redeeming qualities of the fight were the facts that he was wearing armor (even helm) and the use of lots of brandishing moves to fight multiple enemies which is sort of what you'd want to do in such a situation (rely on slashing, not thrusting). Then of course this rule was broken in the end with a thrust finish and Dayne continuing the silly tactic when he was one on one with Ned.

A quick how-to-ser Arthur Dayne.

Didn't Miyamoto Musashi recommend fighting with two swords against multiple opponents?

It could be argued that multiple opponents would be the only viable situation where duel wielding would be somewhat usable but it'd be beyond ridiculous to train for it. You don't expect to go against many enemies all the time so it wouldn't make sense to carry around two full sized longswords just for that.

[ringpriest]

Yeah every fight sequence involving the sand snakes is like a flashback to Xena.

Lucy Lawless could deliver even stinky cheese with flair - one of the (many) problems with Dorne in general, and the Sand Snakes in particular, is that delivery is awful. (I wonder if they're using a separate unit director for Dorne, and they're just not up to the challenge? Although given how bad other aspects of show-Dorne are, I'm not sure even great direction could save it. )

[Deleted]

Look everyone knows that dual wielding is stupid and ridiculous. But, it looks badass, its a staple trope of visual media.

The show has made no remarks about Dawn so far, and short of stopping the scene altogether to have a conversation about how cool his sword is, the people in the show wouldn't get it anyway, so they make him look badass another way, by dual wielding.

Don't read too much into it guys, we know the TOJ scene wouldn't be anything like what we hoped it would be.

[Deleted]

When you are tasked with something theoretically so important that it takes precedent over protecting the king or the heir-prince, using a subpar fighting style probably isn't a good idea. Just use a single sword like an adult, or at the most a parrying dagger.

People in Westeros that can realistically dual wield longswords: Gregor
People that shouldn't: literally everyone else

Fight sucked, scene sucked, rest of the episode was bretty good though.

Who said anything about subpar fighting? Perhaps in GOT (D&D version) for them Dayne was skilled with dual wielding long swords.
What has single sword have anything with being an adult?

You are basing your assumption of who can do what thanks to which argument?
That Clegane is the only one "strong" enough? In our world maybe, but applying our logic in a fictionnal world never works.

[Graeham]

Lucy Lawless could deliver even stinky cheese with flair - one of the (many) problems with Dorne in general, and the Sand Snakes in particular, is that delivery is awful. (I wonder if they're using a separate unit director for Dorne, and they're just not up to the challenge? Although given how bad other aspects of show-Dorne are, I'm not sure even great direction could save it. )

Dorne stands out even more at this time since we're at the point in the show's lifespan where much of the depth and intrigue has evaporated in favour of a large push towards supernatural elements and less interesting characters. Compare the writing for the scenes where Cersei and Tyrion were quipping at each other to Dany's deadpan delivery of her long list of titles. Or the scene where Olenna and Tywin engaged in a battle of wits to the hilariously terrible 'bad pussy' scene.

[Gib Lover]

Who said anything about subpar fighting? Perhaps in GOT (D&D version) for them Dayne was skilled with dual wielding long swords.
What has single sword have anything with being an adult?

You are basing your assumption of who can do what thanks to which argument?
That Clegane is the only one "strong" enough? In our world maybe, but applying our logic in a fictionnal world never works.

Not strong enough, tall enough. It's a height issue not a strength issue. Also, the poster I was responding to himself called it a disadvantageous fighting style.
So back to my point, if the Kingsguard had an assignment of such importance that it was more important than being with the king or prince, he should have been taking it more seriously.
You can suspend disbelief and not apply real world logic only to an extent, like dragons, magic, etc. It's hard to suspend disbelief in a scenario that could happen in the real world like a swordfight.

Edit: the "like an adult" bit was a joke. Daniel Tosh has a joke about potheads, "Grow up and do coke like an adult."