[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

Eh, I dunno. Wasn't it the most sensible course of action even without Jaime's threats? They weren't going to win in any case, might as well not all die on top of it.

He is giving up his home to the Freys (the ones that killed his sister and his nephew) because of a son he has never seen? A son concieved with a Frey?
No it wasn't a sensible choice, they are just showing that Edmure is weak (and he is, even in the books), it's in his persona.

[Deleted]

It's not like he just handed the keep over to Jaime personally in some kind of even trade. They were all dead anyway. Even the Blackfish knew that actually winning was never going to happen.

Every Tully soldier in that keep would be a dead man, Edmure would likely still be in chains, Blackfish would be dead, and Riverrun would be in the hands of the Lannisters. I don't see how preventing some of that disaster is being weak, really.

You can hold a fort for ages with good defending positions. Stannis has proved that.
He could have held the Fort until the North got rid of the Boltons and came to save them. Or the Freys/Lannister would have backed out of Riverrun the second the North was retaken by the Starks.

Giving up before even trying is weak. They had no chance of wining at that moment, but the fact that Jaime wanted to trade, was proof that he knew the siege would be long and would also damage his army. If he could have won swiftly he wouldn't have requiered Edmure. He played Edmure's weakness well.

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Better to live to fight another day, I say. Keep your army, keep your Lord, and find another way to get what you want that doesn't involve basically annihilating what's left of your House.

They have no weapons anymore, A weak leader and the Freys are in there home. Even if they still have the name their House is gone. They will even go down in history as being the only House to lose anything to the Freys...

Everything in GOT is about honor and strenght. House Tully has got neither now.

Their only option to 'get what they want" is now to suck Frey cocks until the North beats the Boltons and the Lannister back out on the Frey protection.

[Tempguy]

Shit, we saw more "Faceless Men" style stuff out of the fucking Bronn teaching Pod scene this episode.

I didn't even realize that. Spot on.

Bronn is "No One"

[Mehrunes]

Yeah, none of that made sense.

"Oh, you're no one now."

"Wait, what? What? You sent her to kill me because I'm clearly NOT."

"Oh, yeah, that's right. Oops. Well, see ya."

The entire storyline just killed the image and mystery of the Faceless Men to me. Especially the Waif, she was clearly NOT Faceless Men material any more than Arya was. She should have just ninja'ed Arya like Jaqen did to all those guys in Harrenhal. But no, the writing just totally butchered the entire idea of them, especially at the end with all this Terminator stuff and not even being a very good assassin.

Shit, we saw more "Faceless Men" style stuff out of the fucking Bronn teaching Pod scene this episode.

But hey, at least Arya is super trained assassin that isn't lost anymore now! Or something. She will go full Assassin's Creed on the people on her list now. Never mind that most of the people still remaining on it know her face, but that would be just poor resolution to Cersei, for example.

[Tempguy]

Actually, their weapons are exactly the sort of instrument you'd want if you're unarmored against someone in armor. Those spikes will punch right through.

Like I said earlier, I'm a little annoyed that they didn't just mob him instead of instantly retreating.

The writing is getting poor, that's why. I love what D&D did with bringing the books to life. I dare even argue that the show was more streamlined and harder hitting than the books.

But without the source it seems that their writers (or someone) is showing their lack of creativity. One of the biggest annoyances in fantasy is the trope where bad guys come at you one by one. I feel that if Dayne was not supposed to be some sort of holy badass, his fight might have turned out the same.

[Deleted]

I didn't even realize that. Spot on.

Bronn is "No One"

I loved how Bronn was happy to see Pod again and teaches him to fight like him asap!

[Blueobelisk]

Hold on...They needed a face so they were like, "Oh yeah let's have her join us so we can take her face." That makes no sense.

No. It's like:

>Assignment comes in to faceless motel. "Kill this actress."
>Arya gets assigned the job.
>Jaqen and No One girl say "the faceless gods are gonna get a face regardless of whether you succeed at killing her or not *wink wink*"
>Arya fails to kill the actress.
>Faceless gods still need that face.
>No One girl was going to take Arya's face for that "mission."
>Arya kills No One girl and offers her face instead of the actress/her own.

And it's balanced in that sense. Not that "once you see our club you have to be one of us or you have to die."

Jaqen did smile at her when she said she was Arya Stark and going back to Westeros. I think he smiled, nodded, and then smiled again. Seems like it was part of his plan.

Ya I was watching the Inside the Episode talk with the directors and the director said even though Jaqen is No One he used to be someone and somewhere inside he respects Arya for making the decision.

[Tempguy]

This right here!


As Blackfish taunted last episode, "We have provisions for two years. Do you have two years, Kingslayer?". Their strength was in their fortification. By lowering the bridge they surrendered everything, he gave up his men and sold out his house. They're now Frey/Lannister's to do with as they please. And we all know how honorable the Lannisters are, let alone the goddamn Freys. Not a good track record of respecting war rights.


The Tully words, "Family, Duty, Honor".

Edmure betrayed his family, ordered the Blackfish apprehended and handed over to their enemies, and betrayed the last bit of honor they could've had as a House. Edmure has undone House Tully and humiliated them.

Bye bye house Tully.

But something tells me that the show will not reflect that. If they somehow return the Tully's to their status as Lords of Riverrun, I'm gonna officially say the show has lost it.

You can't still taunt Jaime about kingslaying, say he has shit for honor, but then basically go belly up for the frey's (The folks who did the most dishonorable thing in Westeros, are the Hillbilly's of Westeros, and the folks who straight up murdered member's of the your liege's family, took your lord, and killed your supposed king who is a member of said family.)

I feel that the soldier's being conflicted on who to follow was accurate, but at least some would be thinking "Fook this! The Blackfish got us our home back and we are set for 2 years!"

And yes, handing over the Blackfish to the frey's is just salt on the crap that the Tully name is now.

They are done. They can't come back from that.

[Deleted]

You know what else takes away your "honor"? Being dead.

I guess I'm a bit of a pragmatist, though not a romantic. Going out in an impossible situation with guns blazing might make for good storybooks, but I'd rather be more like Arya in this regard. Get out with your hide and come back to kick their asses later.

Dying doesn't take your honor away, it takes your life away. Two completly different things.
You can die with honor, people will remember you and the honor you held.
But you can live like Edmure, lose any honor you have for the rest of your life.

As stated, the situation at time 0 was impossible yes, but they could have held the siege for months, years even, and the odds would have shifted in favour of the Tullys. They had time on their side, the Lannisters didn't.

You talk of Arya, but Arya never betrayed her family, even with the Faceless Men training she only had one aim, to avenge her family. She is loyal to her lineage.
Edmure destroyed his own name. Edmure is not at all the startegist type, hide momentarly to have the upper hand later, that isn't his style at all. He is weak and was just trying to save his ass and his unseen son's. Nothing to do with fight another day.

[Tempguy]

No. It's like:

>Assignment comes in to faceless motel. "Kill this actress."
>Arya gets assigned the job.
>Jaqen and No One girl say "the faceless gods are gonna get a face regardless of whether you succeed at killing her or not *wink wink*"
>Arya fails to kill the actress.
>Faceless gods still need that face.
>No One girl was going to take Arya's face for that "mission."
>Arya kills No One girl and offers her face instead of the actress/her own.

And it's balanced in that sense. Not that "once you see our club you have to be one of us or you have to die."



.

I disagree.

She failed once by disobeying. They were gonna kill her. Jaqen #1 died in her place and they told her no more second chances.

They took her back and continued her training. Gave her another assignment. She did not accomplish this.

And if the idea was to only get a face (wink wink nudge nudge) why did the actress still have to die? Because it was a contract. The Faceless men do not reneg on contracts.

Arya now not only disobeyed, decided she wanted out, she also sullied their rep. So yes, she had to die. The Waif-600 failed and Arya killed her, but Arya should still not have been allowed to leave.\

What kind of an organization is that? People can come in, learn their ways, disobey and have a top man die in her place, disbeye again, tarnish the reputation, kill off an apprentice, and be allowed to walk away?

Sorry no.

Either the faceless men are not nearly as elite as we thought and they kinda suck, or this writing was trash.

[Blueobelisk]

Except the actress died, too.

But she didn't take her face as the tribute. She really wanted to kill Arya for the tribute lol. Probably jealous that Jaqen liked her.

And ya you're right it really makes her Someone. So...ya...

[Tempguy]

But she didn't take her face as the tribute. She really wanted to kill Arya for the tribute lol. Probably jealous that Jaqen liked her.

And ya you're right it really makes her Someone. So...ya...

If the goal was to "take a face" then why did the Waif make no attempt to take her face? Which is apparently the goal according to you?

And you can't say she wanted Arya. She didn't know Arya wa sthere until Arya showed up. Otherwise Arya would have had her throat slit in her sleep. That or the Waif-600 is operating on the same programming as Skynet. Which still makes the whole arc stupid for other reasons.

[Tempguy]

Meh, if you're being a romantic, sure. If you're living in the real world, no one gives a fuck about your honor once you're dead. You're just dead and the world moves on. Your enemies trample your corpse, your rivals loot your property, and your loved ones are left defenseless. Honor doesn't save your family or put food on the table. Just ask Ned.

True, but this is Westeros. The place where breaking an oath lingers with you despite there being no Twitter.

[Paarthurnax]

The way Arya cut the candle, her Rapier stance... That was all Syrio training. That was disappointing to me. It seemed to imply more Syrio Forel in her than Faceless Man. Meaning the Faceless Men didn't contribute to her at all, she doesn't seem to be much more now than when she arrived

I think we can assume that Arya has come out of the Faceless men training with above average dexterity/combat skills, solid stealth and disguise training, knowledge of poisons and other non-brute force methods of killing people. She also is much more capable of a fighter then she was when she first got to bravos. Couple that with the fact that no one in Westeros would really recognize her so the need to hide would no longer be necessary. Arya would be able to go anywhere and do anything she wanted w/out fear of being outed as Arya unless she herself said it out loud.

It would be cool if she somehow met back up with the Hound and they tag-team punished as many Freys as they can get their hands on with the Brotherhood.


As for the Bastardbowl, i feel that given the setup of the obvious, Outnumbered John Army vs Much bigger Bolton Army and the fact that Littlefinger has already stated they are going to go help, there has to be some sort of twist. I don't think Rickon getting flayed or burned is really much of a twist, and most other announced plans have a twist. Jamie goes to rescue Margerie, then there is a twist, Arya says she will kill lady crane then there is a twist, Sam says Gilly will stay with his family, then there is a twist, Littlefinger says they will ride north and help Sansa....there has to be a twist.

I don't know if they have established if any of Stanis's forces survived but it would be a cool twist if some of the pledged houses betray the Boltons during the battle and the remaining Stanis army and those that deserted (over half left before the battle remember) come back and help John win the day. They could even show Littlefinger marching someplace but then pull the switch and have them arrive someplace completely different right as the battle is going to shit for John.

[Blueobelisk]

If the goal was to "take a face" then why did the Waif make no attempt to take her face? Which is apparently the goal according to you?

And you can't say she wanted Arya. She didn't know Arya wa sthere until Arya showed up. Otherwise Arya would have had her throat slit in her sleep. That or the Waif-600 is operating on the same programming as Skynet. Which still makes the whole arc stupid for other reasons.

*just rewatched the scene (52 mins in on HBOGo)*

>Arya is asleep.
>Actress is getting a bottle from her medicine cabinet on a school.
>Actress turns around.
>Sees some random guy (No One Girl)
>Arya wakes up
>Looks into other room
>Actress is impaled with a fucking stool
>No One Girl: "lol she didn't have to die so painfully but the No One God was promised a name. And now he was promised another name."

I guess it wasn't about the face. Although...? Idk lemme watch more.

Btw why are you guys calling no one girl Waif. Maybe I missed it when I was marathoning the episodes but the girl has no name....no?

[Deleted]

Meh, if you're being a romantic, sure. If you're living in the real world, no one gives a fuck about your honor once you're dead. You're just dead and the world moves on. Your enemies trample your corpse, your rivals loot your property, and your loved ones are left defenseless. Honor doesn't save your family or put food on the table. Just ask Ned.

"Real world" "Game of Thrones". It doesn't compute.
Look at how being a Kingslayer nearly destroyed Jaime, the Bath scene with Brienne explains it very well. He did the sensible thing you like so much, and it nearly destroyed his life because his honor became non existant. GOT is a romantic world, the sole fact that all the Kings feel they deserve the throne shows exactly that.
Someone sensible but without honor will not be trusted, or even killed on sight if possible in GOT.

Ed's situation isn't comparable to Ned's at all, and even if you want too, it's true that Ned's family has seen crap since the begining, but Edmure got is own onclu killed, lost his family and his hometown because he lacked honor.
At least Ned's family is still there and can survive.

The ones without honor that do good are Littlefinger and Varys. And they both manage well because they are very intelligent and think ahead, they play on other people's honor it is true.
Now Edmure is not intelligent, he can't do stuff like that. He has no intelligence (it has been showed already), no balls (proven again), no honor.

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As for the Bastardbowl, i feel that given the setup of the obvious, Outnumbered John Army vs Much bigger Bolton Army and the fact that Littlefinger has already stated they are going to go help, there has to be some sort of twist. I don't think Rickon getting flayed or burned is really much of a twist, and most other announced plans have a twist. Jamie goes to rescue Margerie, then there is a twist, Arya says she will kill lady crane then there is a twist, Sam says Gilly will stay with his family, then there is a twist, Littlefinger says they will ride north and help Sansa....there has to be a twist.

I don't know if they have established if any of Stanis's forces survived but it would be a cool twist if some of the pledged houses betray the Boltons during the battle and the remaining Stanis army and those that deserted (over half left before the battle remember) come back and help John win the day. They could even show Littlefinger marching someplace but then pull the switch and have them arrive someplace completely different right as the battle is going to shit for John.

Well basic knowledge of the battle has been posted on this thread a few times already.
The only twist possible is the Umber backstabbing the Boltons, but apprently it won't be the case.
Just when you think Jon's army is toast, Littlefinger will save the day, the scene where Sansa confronts him had one purpose only. Sansa's character growth, coming out of his shadow and trusting him no more.

[Malagan]

You know what else takes away your "honor"? Being dead.

I guess I'm a bit of a pragmatist, though not a romantic. Going out in an impossible situation with guns blazing might make for good storybooks, but I'd rather be more like Arya in this regard. Get out with your hide and come back to kick their asses later.

Dying doesn't take away your honor. You die with honor and lie an honorable corpse, don't you?

[Fayenoor]

Meh, if you're being a romantic, sure. If you're living in the real world, no one gives a fuck about your honor once you're dead. You're just dead and the world moves on. Your enemies trample your corpse, your rivals loot your property, and your loved ones are left defenseless. Honor doesn't save your family or put food on the table. Just ask Ned.

From Blackfish's POV--

He realized that Edmure just sold his house's honor. He could escape with Brienne and fight with Jon Snow and die in a battle not of his own choosing fighting or an army not his own. Now, you may think that Jon could have helped him get Riverrun back after he got Winterfell. But what is the point of all that when your own people don't want to be freed. Like his guard pointed out -- he is not the Lord of Riverrun, Edmure is. And Edmure just surrendered the house to their biggest enemy with out a fight. So, literally for Blackfish, there was nothing left for him. You have to realize that this is medieval fantasy where dying with honor was more important than living a long life with more honor.

"All men must die."

Blackfish chose to die in a battle of his choosing, in his own house, in his own terms. For that he earned tremendous respect. You can see that respect in Jamie's face when they bring the news of Blackfish's death to him.

[Rollo]

Seems it's going that way indeed! The only difference will be that this time, Jaime won't be in time to save Kings Landing from doom. I can't wait for the final episodes. Last 2-3 episodes weren't really jaw dropping. We'll get them now.

Wouldn't surprise me that the Lannister bloodline stop to exist by the time Game of Thrones is finished. Tywin wanted the bloodline to go on for a long time. Don't think he'll get his wish.

It's not really shown in the show, but there are plenty of Lannisters still running around. When I did my post a bit back about who is left with the main family last names, I thought Lannister was close to being gone, but they seemed to have the most remaining of all the families.

[Tempguy]

I think this season is really suffering from how the content is split up, especially without the books to fill gaps. It's basically that we've been waiting so long for every storyline to conclude that we're coming up with so many theories that the actual outcome is a disappointment. I think it'd be better if they had fewer small scenes in each episode and more larger ones - like have the arya storyline from the past two episodes play out all at once.

I am so happy someone else noticed. I love GGRM's work. I am even aspiring to emulate his prose cause that shit is beautiful man. I hold his book in very high regard and by no means think it is easy to craft such a complex and interweaving story.

However, he is one man. There is no way he could think up all these theories people have. No fucking way. To do so and keep track of it all would be such a huge task that i am sure it would take 10 years per book even with a team of 4-5 people helping. It's just too damn much.

I am upset when super fans attack me like I am insulting the man by saying that. Like if I were to say that GRRM is a super brilliant human but he is not a a god people take offense.

But yes, I agree with that 100%. People have been waiting so long that the books have taken a larger than life presence. The meta stuff transcends the book work easily. Especially since a great deal of it takes into account stuff fleshed out beyond the book as well.

Btw why are you guys calling no one girl Waif. Maybe I missed it when I was marathoning the episodes but the girl has no name....no?

yes. She is known as the Waif. After yesterday, I call her Waif-600 cause she is clearly a terminator.