[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

Hmm, true. But I still want to get out somehow.

If he's at Casterly Rock, we might see Dany freeing him and giving him lordship over the Riverlands again.

I imagine taking Casterly Rock will be one of the first things that Tyrion advises, cuts off a large part of the percieved Lannister power.

[Frontenac]

Edmure isn't at the Twins.

He's either at Riverrun, or he's at Casterly Rock.

I think he is at the Twins. Walder Frey says to Jaime that "Edmure is back in his cell".

Which makes Jaime a liar... Who would have thought?

[TickTickTick]

"Tywin knew because....reasons ."

'Tywin didnt know because... reasons'

See? I can make a strawman too. We actually provided some logical reason and you dismissed them all...

-Did he know PRIOR to the kids being born that Jaime and Cerci had regular sex? Evidence?

Why are you demanding evidence for something that had happened long before the first book? It's not a real life for us to give you 'yeah, in that history book there's written...'
There is no evidence that he knew, as well as there is no evidence that he didnt. We simply dont know cause that topic wasnt touched as much before season 3 (i guess?). That doesnt dismiss all ways of logical thinking, lets not make an idiot out of Tywin. He was an intelligent man.

-What could he have done to stop this/separate them as kids? As adults? Demand Jaime leave the Kingsguard and go to Casterly Rock...wait...

What is good for his house name. As you put it, had he told Robert, Lannisters would be ruined for ever, maybe even connected with Targaryens for doing similar thing to them. The fact that he didnt do anything about it doesnt instantly mean he didnt know.

-After the kids are born...what good would it do to inform Robert or anyone that they are not his?

Ofc no good. Thats why he wouldnt tell him. That would be his 'way out' of the royal family.

I mean, you guys are attributing some superhuman levels of intelligence and manipulation to the man.

When you hear rumors about your gf cheating on you, ofc you dont believe in them instantly, but get suspicious and have it on mind. Each questionable behaviour strengthens your belief it might be true. Same in this situation. There's no way he at least didnt hear the rumors. You dont need to be superhuman intelligent to connect some dots.

There is reason to believe he did not know until after the kids were already born and damn near grown. Even if he wanted to separate Jaime from Cersi, Jaime clearly ignored his wishes and did whatever it took to be near her.

Again, no proof since the action starts when the kids are older. Although i think that be may have not known about this when they were young, when Cersei wasnt yet married to Robert, cause he would do something about it at that time.

[Tempguy]

'Tywin didnt know because... reasons'

See? I can make a strawman too. We actually provided some logical reason and you dismissed them all...



Why are you demanding evidence for something that had happened long before the first book? It's not a real life for us to give you 'yeah, in that history book there's written...'
There is no evidence that he knew, as well as there is no evidence that he didnt. We simply dont know cause that topic wasnt touched as much before season 3 (i guess?). That doesnt dismiss all ways of logical thinking, lets not make an idiot out of Tywin. He was an intelligent man.



What is good for his house name. As you put it, had he told Robert, Lannisters would be ruined for ever, maybe even connected with Targaryens for doing similar thing to them. The fact that he didnt do anything about it doesnt instantly mean he didnt know.



Ofc no good. Thats why he wouldnt tell him. That would be his 'way out' of the royal family.



When you hear rumors about your gf cheating on you, ofc you dont believe in them instantly, but get suspicious and have it on mind. Each questionable behaviour strengthens your belief it might be true. Same in this situation. There's no way he at least didnt hear the rumors. You dont need to be superhuman intelligent to connect some dots.



Again, no proof since the action starts when the kids are older. Although i think that be may have not known about this when they were young, when Cersei wasnt yet married to Robert, cause he would do something about it at that time.

My point was refuting the line of arguments how he supposedly knew the whole time. We don't know if he knew the whole time or not. All we can do is interpret the situation as it shows in the books.

By the time the books began, whether he knew then or not would have not made much difference.It would have ruined his house and cost him his only chance at a legitimate and respectable heir. His line of lordship would end with him since no one would be caught dead supporting Tyrion of house incest.


My argument is only that Tywin was not a bad parent. He did what he could and he was the rock that held his family together. He was even the one that brought his family back into respectable status among the other lords.

His kids may have turned out to be less than desireable, but while he was in charge his family flourished. Had he been placed in Neds situation, it would be an easy argument to say that all his kids would still be alive, and he would have never lost the rock to begin with.

The Starks are indeed loving parents. However, in this world simply loving your kids is not enough to keep them safe. He was a shit dad to Tyrion, but that is honestly his only real failure as a parent.

Meanwhile Caitlin instigated a Civil war via her capture of Tyrion. Despite the fact that her two daughters were in lannister possession. Ned failed to send his children away the moment things began to go awry. And Caitlin released their most valuable hostage in hopes that Lannisters release her kids.

They love their kids, but their actions did little to keep them safe.

[Deleted]

The Starks only fault is assuming everyone values honour as highly as they do.

Thats basically the achilles heel of the entire Stark bloodline.

The only moment that I thought Tywin showed himself to be a decent parent is when he tells Arya the story about Jaime having dyslexia (obviously not called that in the show, but it is that), and that's not even in the books. Other than that, Tywins children are simply a way for him to live on after his death.

He cares about the family name more than he does his childrens wishes. Whereas Ned took Arya's wishes into account when he hired Syrio Forel.

[Tempguy]

The Starks only fault is assuming everyone values honour as highly as they do.

Thats basically the achilles heel of the entire Stark bloodline.

The only moment that I thought Tywin showed himself to be a decent parent is when he tells Arya the story about Jaime having dyslexia (obviously not called that in the show, but it is that), and that's not even in the books. Other than that, Tywins children are simply a way for him to live on after his death.

He cares about the family name more than he does his childrens wishes. Whereas Ned took Arya's wishes into account when he hired Syrio Forel.

Truth be told, I honestly don't care THAT much. If I had to choose a parent I would choose the Starks.

/shrug

Thread was getting a little dead at the time when I originally posted that. Wasn't a troll since I do stand by what I said (regardless how many would disagree) but I was hoping to gain a bit of a conversation from it.

Mission accomplished?

But I do think Tywin is a much smarter man than Ned was, and if he was the parents of the Stark kids they would all have turned out better for the most part. Jon would probably be dead though...So for that it is okay to hate him.

[Deleted]

Eh i'm not sure about smarter, I think they are 2 very different men with 2 very different leadership styles. The reason Tywin came out on top is because Tywin doesn't assume that everyone thinks like him, but on the other hand, I highly doubt Ned would have treated Tyrion in the same manner, and therefore wouldn't have been killed by his own child.

I'm not sure how much different the Stark kids would have been with Tywin as there dad. I mean Sansa is basically Cersei without the bitchiness when she was younger (and you could argue that this is down to Neds influence), Cersei thought she was the princess in the fairytale, and it wasn't until she actually found out what being married to Big Bobby B was actually like that she became as cynical as she was. Nothing that happened to the boys was Neds fault. Arya might have turned out differently, but in the show Tywin alludes that he would have prefered Cersei to be a bit more like her, or maybe he just likes the idea of having a daughter like Arya, when in reality she'd just get used as another peice to advance the family name, like Cersei was.

[Tempguy]

Eh i'm not sure about smarter, I think they are 2 very different men with 2 very different leadership styles. The reason Tywin came out on top is because Tywin doesn't assume that everyone thinks like him, but on the other hand, I highly doubt Ned would have treated Tyrion in the same manner, and therefore wouldn't have been killed by his own child.

I'm not sure how much different the Stark kids would have been with Tywin as there dad. I mean Sansa is basically Cersei without the bitchiness when she was younger (and you could argue that this is down to Neds influence), Cersei thought she was the princess in the fairytale, and it wasn't until she actually found out what being married to Big Bobby B was actually like that she became as cynical as she was. Nothing that happened to the boys was Neds fault. Arya might have turned out differently, but in the show Tywin alludes that he would have prefered Cersei to be a bit more like her, or maybe he just likes the idea of having a daughter like Arya, when in reality she'd just get used as another peice to advance the family name, like Cersei was.

That was on their mom.

I think she should have not acted so brash with Tyriion, then she should not have given up Jaime, and she should have told her son to not marry that girl and stick to his original oath. She knew how the Frey's were. She should have told her son fuck that girls honor and do right by his people.

[Deleted]

I'll give you the Tyrion and Jaime ones. Taking Tyrion hostage just came accross as a moment of madness, though at that point Ned was still the Hand of the King, therefore the second person on the most powerful people in Westeros list, so she probably thought he was safe. You could argue that she'd been hanging around with Ned too much and that his honourable nature rubbed off on her, but I just think she's always been bonkers, I mean look at Lysa.

Jaime can be put down to grief from hearing that she's just lost her 2 youngest sons, maybe not a good excuse, but an excuse nonetheless.

In the books, Robb and Jeyne Westerling were already married when they met back up with Catelyn, so she didn't really have a say in that matter, and they already trashed that storyline enough in the show with the addition of Talisa instead of Jeyne, so i'm glad they didn't mess it up too much, I mean the Red Wedding has to happen.

[Tempguy]

Kudos on that last point.

I think we can all agree all the families have their issues. Which makes the story all the better. The Starks biggest fault is being righteous in a corrupt ass world.

I personally would prefer a dad that knew how shit the world is and adapts accordingly (personal preference) though that would change drastically if I was born with a deformity. In that case , Starks all day everyday.

[TickTickTick]

I think it's safe to assume that Startk's way is very similar to our times, whereas Tywin's way fit to their times. That was the time of wars, blood, death, etc etc, and imo his hard hand helped their children understand what is the world, what rules are there and what to do to stay at the top. Stark's kids on the other hand were spoiled, which is so out of place in this setting and now they are reaping what they sow. Arya with her 'i am not a lady' (even tho at this time that was practicaly her only duty - to marry a lord), Sansa with her 'King's Landing Dream', Brann with doing whatever the hell he wants, Robb showing complete disrespect to his ally even tho he pledged an oath, only cause he met some woman and fell in love (and in this setting love barely exists anywhere).

So, considering we take a look at what time is the action played, Tywin was the better parent. More intelligent to. He cared about his house name and influence. Starks were kind to their children, but in the long road, it only harmed them, not benefited.

[Faltemer]

So, considering we take a look at what time is the action played, Tywin was the better parent. More intelligent to. He cared about his house name and influence. Starks were kind to their children, but in the long road, it only harmed them, not benefited.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I mean given a few more years I think most of the Starks would have turned out fine. I think it is unfair to judge solely based on the outcome we see, that was mostly caused by Lannister’s. It’s a war-torn place yes, but full-blown multi-way wars seem fairly uncommon. In a universe where Jon Arryn doesn’t figure it out and he remains the hand I feel the Starks have the better outlook.

Starks: Robb would have made a decent ruler, but was thrust into a lot of impossible choices one after another in a world where he is given a more reasonable transition and less immediate pressure on him he should do fine. Sansa might have grown up snobbish and never transitioned much, but unless I am missing something she likely never would have been set to marry Joffrey without the other events occurring. She would have married a lord and been a struck up lady of some house, but for the most part would be fine. She would play the part.

Bran was young and allowed to leave a carefree life, hard to fault anyone for letting their child do that, considering how little control Tywin actually seems to have on his kid’s specific actions. Rickon, I have no idea. Jon turned out great regardless, IMO. So I don’t see that changing. Arya is interesting, but I feel at the end of the day, especially if Ned was still alive and in control, she would be married off to a lord. She might not like it, and show more resistance/rebellion then most but she would do it. If they were smart, marry her off to a clan like the Mormont’s (If there are others).

Tywin: He treats one of his children terribly, and the other two run roughshod doing whatever they want, which is mostly each other. And one of them kills him. The only offspring his children bare are incest produced lies, who are mostly shit. In the show, the sons survive multiple times on luck/randomness/wealth, which is hardly indicative of anything. They all treat the world mostly like Bran, I don’t see much of them being actually better suited for much. Older and more experienced, but that’s an unfair thing to judge on, as they were older.

Overall I think Stark’s raised the better children. The world had to fall apart in the exact specific way it did, for the Lannister’s to thrive as much as they did. And as I said I attribute that to a lot of luck, and experience more so then parenting. A lot of things could ahv swinged the other way hypothetically. In an even just semi reasonable series of events I think the Starks turn out much better, both morally and legacy wise.This is only from the show’s perspective.

[Deleted]

Sam Jackson guide to GoT

[Deleted]

Sam Jackson guide to GoT

Sounds like Sam L. Jackson


Scratch that. You already said it was him.

[Kellorion]

Ahh how the fuck are Kit/Peter/Emilia not under lead actor/actress for the Emmys? Tyrion Jon Snow and Dany are the main characters of the show.

[Kellorion]

Because it's not uncommon for clear winners to be spread around like that such that more awards go out to the stuff that the award-givers (whatever it's called) like.

See: The Martian being in the "Musical or Comedy" category so it could win at the Golden Globes.

And that example is bullshit, if it deserved to be there, it would be there. Not flaming you at all. Just Sometimes spreading the wealth is good, and sometimes bad.
Like let Schumer win for SNL, but have Key and Peele win for show.

[Faltemer]

They might not have been some big loving family, but they'd still be rich, powerful, essentially in control of the throne, and so on. The Starks would still just be chillin up in the North doing their thing as always.

Yes but the question was who was the better parent and further who would produce the better kids. I'm not questioning the Lannister's would be well off, but if there isn't a war, and more specifically the war we see going on the Lannister's are worse off then the Starks IMO. And it's not like the Starks lived a bad life, they were well respected wealthy enough at least for the North it seems. They would always have support of most of the families of the North as long as Winterfell was theirs. I think they were more well rounded and only the specifics of what we saw led to their downfall.

[Deleted]

The biggest crime is that Ramin Djawadi didn't get nominated.

Don't particularly care about Kit/Peter/Emilia. Dinklage has had fuck all to work with this season, Emilia shouldn't win a damn thing, and Kit is still young. Lena Headey deserves to win for being a standout in every season so far. Miguel Sapochnik deserves to win for Outstanding Director as well for the standout job that he did on Ep 9/10.

[Faltemer]

In terms of, "Are the kids happy", then sure...the Starks would have been better off, I think. So yes to that part.

In every other way, the Lannisters would just be even better off than they have been, and with significantly less infighting between the siblings. (Cersei would still dislike Tyrion, but it wouldn't have escalated the way events have caused it to)

I don't think the Starks would have fought between each other at all. What exactly would there be to truly fight about? So even the minimal infighting between Cersei/Tyrion would have overshadowed the starks. And the Lannisters being more wealthy isn't a sign of parenting, just of the families wealth and even then I feel would have very little effect on their lives, since I dont think the Starks were poor. The question still is who is better parent, Ned or Tywin. So anything unrelated to their actual parenting is irrelevent. So Ned's ideals vs Tywin's, what actually they seemed to instill in their children, and how it would work in various circumstances.

The biggest crime is that Ramin Djawadi didn't get nominated.

Seriously, Light of the Seven is truly incredible and he consistently creates this utterly unique pieces that perfectly capture the mood and setting.

[Frontenac]

I think it's safe to assume that Startk's way is very similar to our times, whereas Tywin's way fit to their times. That was the time of wars, blood, death, etc etc, and imo his hard hand helped their children understand what is the world, what rules are there and what to do to stay at the top. Stark's kids on the other hand were spoiled, which is so out of place in this setting and now they are reaping what they sow. Arya with her 'i am not a lady' (even tho at this time that was practicaly her only duty - to marry a lord), Sansa with her 'King's Landing Dream', Brann with doing whatever the hell he wants, Robb showing complete disrespect to his ally even tho he pledged an oath, only cause he met some woman and fell in love (and in this setting love barely exists anywhere).

So, considering we take a look at what time is the action played, Tywin was the better parent. More intelligent to. He cared about his house name and influence. Starks were kind to their children, but in the long road, it only harmed them, not benefited.

I don't think the Stark kids were spoiled. Ned trained the boys in the way they needed to be trained, and the same with Catlyn an her girls. The problem is that Arya is a tom boy, which is not that uncommon at nine years old. Being married to a handsome and powerful lord was probably the dream of most noble girls of the time, so Sansa has not been spoiled for that. Bran could not do everything he wanted either. Yes he climbed on walls, but it was against his mother commands. We see that he had to train in combat, and Maester Luwyn taught him the lore of the realm (which seems to bore him). He also had to watch his father execute someone. Robb errors are not to be blamed on his education, but on his age. He's a teenager, let's not forget that. I would say that the Starks were prepared well enough to rule the North, where relations with the bannermen are more personnal and based on the word given. Since the North has always been lukewarm to the Realm, they did not need much more. The Starks are the Atreides of Game of Thrones, giving loyalty for loyalty.

Tywin's case is different. The Starks cared about their legacy, but it was pretty much a given. They were the uncontested rulers of the North for thousands of years. House Lannister, on the other hand, had fallen into disgrace, especially under Tytos, Tywin's father. Tywin had to fight to reassert his authority over his bannermen (ex.: the Reynes and the Tarbecks) and his influence over the other Great Houses. It's because of his hard work that House Lannister came back as a powerful house of the realm. In that regard, he's pretty much like Baron Harkonnen. So he cares very much about his legacy, and doesn't want his children to squander it all. That's why he kept them on a leash. However, I believe they were far more spoiled than the Starks. Cersei must not have been said "no" much often. Also, I fail to see how Tywin's education has benefited any of his children.