[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Ilikegreenfire]

In the books, I believe he isn't one of the greatest swordsmen in westerns either. He is like Ned. Capable fighter but more of a commander.

He hasn't been given the chance to prove himself that much in the books.

In the the show his biggest kill is the white walker but who knows how much of that was the fact that the walker wasn't expecting a Valyrian steel blade, Jon catches the spear with longlcaw, it doesn't shatter, they both go wtf, they parry again, jon scores a hit and the walkers shatters. Most of the rest of Jon's skill is just a Noble trained guy with a Valyrian steel blade versus a bunch of chumps.

He hasn't really faced anyone, else of note. Don't get me wrong being noble trained makes him better than most other swordsmen, and most of the greats are either dead or maimed, but we don't really know just how good he is in the show.

[Ilikegreenfire]

But he's not exactly quick in the show either - he's kind of stocky relative to someone like Loras who fits that archetype. I just don't find him believable as a badass fighter.

Hes not supposed to look like a natural badass, that's his entire character, he is the classic unexpected hero. and hes not stocky. His typical northern clothing/armor is built for warmth with extra padding in the shoulders and the like, making him look a lot bulkier. Look at the battle for castle black how he fights the Thenn, and the battle of the bastards.

Loras is also 6'

[Frontenac]

But he's not exactly quick in the show either - he's kind of stocky relative to someone like Loras who fits that archetype. I just don't find him believable as a badass fighter.

Jon doesn't have to be the "badass fighter." He is the badass Lord Commander or the badass King. He just needs to be decent enough with a blade. His main qualities are that he is a natural leader, that he is just, brave and perseverant. Besides, he's a Northman. He's all about grit. Leave the showy fighting styles to those southern knights in their tacky, shiny armours and stupid tourneys.

Besides, compared to most men in the Night's Watch, he's an expert swordsman.

[Deleted]

Since when has Jon been one of the finest swordsmen in the land?

I'm struggling to think of a fight that he showed himself to be even remotely comparable to the likes of Syrio Forel or Jaime Lannister.

He's a good swordsman in the Nights Watch, because he was actually educated in combat by a Master at Arms, unlike the vast majority of the Nights Watch.

Just thinking of some standout fights that he's had in the show.

Jon vs Qhorin Halfhand, Qhorin let him win.

Jon vs Styr Magnar of Thenn, Jon manages to blindside him by bringing a blacksmiths hammer into the fight, was losing up until that point.

Jon vs The White Walker, Jon was on the defensive until the fact that Valyrian Steel can block the White Walkers blade was discovered, Jon won because he recovered from his shock quicker.

Jon vs Karl, pretty evenly matched until one of Crasters wives stabs Karl through the calf, allowing Jon to get behind him and end the fight.

Jon vs Ramsay, Ramsay just kinda stood there and let Jon beat the shit out of him.

To me Jon seems to be like a pretty good knight level swordsman, he's obviously better than the majority of the common folk in the series, due to being trained from a young age, but he's nothing special, certainly not one of the "finest swordsmen in the land".

[Ilikegreenfire]

Since when has Jon been one of the finest swordsmen in the land?

I'm struggling to think of a fight that he showed himself to be even remotely comparable to the likes of Syrio Forel or Jaime Lannister.

He's a good swordsman in the Nights Watch, because he was actually educated in combat by a Master at Arms, unlike the vast majority of the Nights Watch.

Just thinking of some standout fights that he's had in the show.

Jon vs Qhorin Halfhand, Qhorin let him win.

Jon vs Styr Magnar of Thenn, Jon manages to blindside him by bringing a blacksmiths hammer into the fight, was losing up until that point.

Jon vs The White Walker, Jon was on the defensive until the fact that Valyrian Steel can block the White Walkers blade was discovered, Jon won because he recovered from his shock quicker.

Jon vs Karl, pretty evenly matched until one of Crasters wives stabs Karl through the calf, allowing Jon to get behind him and end the fight.

Jon vs Ramsay, Ramsay just kinda stood there and let Jon beat the shit out of him.

To me Jon seems to be like a pretty good knight level swordsman, he's obviously better than the majority of the common folk in the series, due to being trained from a young age, but he's nothing special, certainly not one of the "finest swordsmen in the land".

Pretty much this. He holds is own and makes the average farmboy's look like the fodders they are sure, like any trained nobles son should, but he has't proven himself against anyone worthy in a "fair" fight yet. Even if Longclaw turns into Ashbringer and he becomes a Tirion Fordring level fire Jesus him being short is ok, he was always supposed to be short, hes is the unlikely hero.

[Absintheminded]

Someone pointed out in that (Vanity Fair? Dunno the magazine name) of the Stark kids, Arya has mysteriously obtained Littlefinger's dagger in her belt.

It's not at all mysterious if you actually follow spoilers.

[Gemini Soul]

It's not at all mysterious if you actually follow spoilers.

IIRC Sansa has Arya kill him and that's probably when she gets it.

[Ilikegreenfire]

IIRC Sansa has Arya kill him and that's probably when she gets it.

She's been his end game ever since Cat died, he just couldn't let the boner go, it survived Cat's death and eventually get's him killed. Lf was never meant to live tho.

Ironically he may actually be one of the inadvertent saviors of the world. If he hadn't have fucked Ned, Stannis the Mannis would have eventually become king. The lanisters versus the North the Riverlands Dorn the Crownlands the Stormalnds, and perhaps the vale the iorn islands and the reach. Most likely making the Westerose civil war even bloodier leaving no one house in good shape to help fight the walkers, even if it was reviled that the lannisters were out of gold in time for the the rest of the realms to be in good shape, they would be united under Stannis who would probably make damn sure to fight Dany and her dragons aka the best hope against the walkers to the death.

Tl;DR LF isn't the hero we deserve he is the hero we need

[Frontenac]

She's been his end game ever since Cat died, he just couldn't let the boner go, it survived Cat's death and eventually get's him killed. Lf was never meant to live tho.

Ironically he may actually be one of the inadvertent saviors of the world. If he hadn't have fucked Ned, Stannis the Mannis would have eventually become king. The lanisters versus the North the Riverlands Dorn the Crownlands the Stormalnds, and perhaps the vale the iorn islands and the reach. Most likely making the Westerose civil war even bloodier leaving no one house in good shape to help fight the walkers, even if it was reviled that the lannisters were out of gold in time for the the rest of the realms to be in good shape, they would be united under Stannis who would probably make damn sure to fight Dany and her dragons aka the best hope against the walkers to the death.

Tl;DR LF isn't the hero we deserve he is the hero we need

Ned was dead the moment he told Cersei he knew about her incestuous relation with her brother. If he didn't and told Robert before, then Cersei and her bastards would be gone or dead. Maybe there would have been a civil war, but it would have been King Robert, his two brothers and all the realms against the Lannisters. It would have been rather short. One King and all his realm against a felon, fighting in the Westerlands and perhaps the Riverlands. Instead we had five kings fighting each other, leaving the Riverlands in ruins, the Stormlands in chaos, the North decimated and the extinction of four great families (Tully, Baratheon, Martel, Tyrell) and the near extinction of House Stark.

And Littlefinger is no hero at all. He's doing all this for himself and doesn't give a crap about the White Walkers. He most probably doesn't even believe in them. As Varys said, he would see the Kingdom burn if it meant he would reign over the ashes. He's a small, small man with a problem of ego. A frog that wants to make himself as big as an ox. He's a villain, just like Cersei. The facts he's more cunning and smiles alot don't make him any better.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Ned was dead the moment he told Cersei he knew about her incestuous relation with her brother. If he didn't and told Robert before, then Cersei and her bastards would be gone or dead. Maybe there would have been a civil war, but it would have been King Robert, his two brothers and all the realms against the Lannisters. It would have been rather short. One King and all his realm against a felon, fighting in the Westerlands and perhaps the Riverlands. Instead we had five kings fighting each other, leaving the Riverlands in ruins, the Stormlands in chaos, the North decimated and the extinction of four great families (Tully, Baratheon, Martel, Tyrell) and the near extinction of House Stark.

And Littlefinger is no hero at all. He's doing all this for himself and doesn't give a crap about the White Walkers. He most probably doesn't even believe in them. As Varys said, he would see the Kingdom burn if it meant he would reign over the ashes. He's a small, small man with a problem of ego. A frog that wants to make himself as big as an ox. He's a villain, just like Cersei. The facts he's more cunning and smiles alot don't make him any better.

I know hes no real hero, I was trying to be silly. Tho without the chaos he sowed Dany and her drags probably would have been fucked or at least wouldn't be able to land in time. 1 Dragon is probably worth more against the Night king than 6 great house army's, every felled solder is just one more wight.

[Netherspark]

I severely doubt Littlefinger will die in season 7. I doubt he'll die until the latter half of season 8.

As for the dagger, I think he'll give it to Arya.

[Frontenac]

I severely doubt Littlefinger will die in season 7. I doubt he'll die until the latter half of season 8.

As for the dagger, I think he'll give it to Arya.

It's possible. Littlefinger has a thing for the Stark girls. The boys are Ned's sons, but the girls are Cat's daughters. Let's remember also that he recognized Arya in Harrenhal, but didn't denounce her to Tywin Lannister.

[Netherspark]

It's possible. Littlefinger has a thing for the Stark girls. The boys are Ned's sons, but the girls are Cat's daughters. Let's remember also that he recognized Arya in Harrenhal, but didn't denounce her to Tywin Lannister.

I think it would be more to curry favor with Sansa, and the Starks in general (being a "friend" to her family).

As for recognizing her in Harrenhal, he most likely saw that as just another piece of information, to be used at a time when it would benefit him (which never came). In fact, I'll bet he'll say he's giving her the dagger as an apology for "not being able" to help her at Harrenhal, so she can use it to kill her enemies. But of course that will be just a ploy to try to get her on his side.

[Ilikegreenfire]

I think it would be more to curry favor with Sansa, and the Starks in general (being a "friend" to her family).

As for recognizing her in Harrenhal, he most likely saw that as just another piece of information, to be used at a time when it would benefit him (which never came). In fact, I'll bet he'll say he's giving her the dagger as an apology for "not being able" to help her at Harrenhal, so she can use it to kill her enemies. But of course that will be just a ploy to try to get her on his side.

Bro he's dead, if you expect Sansa to fall for one of his games now you haven't been paying attention.

[eschatological]

Bro he's dead, if you expect Sansa to fall for one of his games now you haven't been paying attention.

Well, it could be interesting if LF figures this out, gets over his weird Cat obsession, and convinces Arya Sansa has been too influenced by the Lannisters and Boltons into being a bad person. He could even play on their childhood tension and the old image Arya has of Sansa, who essentially got the Butcher's son killed.

Let's see if the writers can come up with an idea I thought of in the course of 30 seconds after reading your post.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Well, it could be interesting if LF figures this out, gets over his weird Cat obsession, and convinces Arya Sansa has been too influenced by the Lannisters and Boltons into being a bad person. He could even play on their childhood tension and the old image Arya has of Sansa, who essentially got the Butcher's son killed.

Let's see if the writers can come up with an idea I thought of in the course of 30 seconds after reading your post.

I don't think he was never destined to live tho. Grrm hates cliches the master schemer who aways comes out ahead every single time and lives in the end would be pretty cliche. He sowed the chaos he needed to sow and trained Sansa, his purpose is over.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I don't think he was never destined to live tho. Grrm hates cliches the master schemer who aways comes out ahead every single time and lives in the end would be pretty cliche. He sowed the chaos he needed to sow and trained Sansa, his purpose is over.

Littlefinger knows that there are some bets you just don't take. He knows when to cut his losses. If he truly has no plan left, then I think he's smart enough to make amends with Sansa and leave. "Yeah, I was selfish, I screwed up, you don't want me, I won't bother you any further." At that point, I think Sansa - if she still has any semblance of her father's honor in her (unlikely given the events of S6) - then she would just let him go and move on to taking down people who are ACTUALLY trying to kill her.

The cliche of the master schemer who pulls tricks out of thin air is averted, whilst also upholding Littlefinger's established intelligence of NOT PROVOKING PEOPLE TO THE POINT THAT THEY WANT TO KILL YOU. Littlefinger has always been operating by that logic since before the series began; all of his maneuvering was by proxies and in secret. We would never openly attempt something if it could be traced back to him, and now that Sansa has figured it out, I think all it takes is just her reminding him that she can tell everyone what he did, and perhaps even have him killed (ofcourse she wouldn't see that). LF is too smart to risk going further.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Littlefinger knows that there are some bets you just don't take. He knows when to cut his losses. If he truly has no plan left, then I think he's smart enough to make amends with Sansa and leave. "Yeah, I was selfish, I screwed up, you don't want me, I won't bother you any further." At that point, I think Sansa - if she still has any semblance of her father's honor in her (unlikely given the events of S6) - then she would just let him go and move on to taking down people who are ACTUALLY trying to kill her.

The cliche of the master schemer who pulls tricks out of thin air is averted, whilst also upholding Littlefinger's established intelligence of NOT PROVOKING PEOPLE TO THE POINT THAT THEY WANT TO KILL YOU. Littlefinger has always been operating by that logic since before the series began; all of his maneuvering was by proxies and in secret. We would never openly attempt something if it could be traced back to him, and now that Sansa has figured it out, I think all it takes is just her reminding him that she can tell everyone what he did, and perhaps even have him killed (ofcourse she wouldn't see that). LF is too smart to risk going further.

I don't think LF will ever leave, hes never been about the money, if he was he probably could have stayed master of coin.

He hasn't been about a titles or leaving a legacy, if he were his rather metoric rise from a minor count level lord to a duke level lord of the largest castle in the 7 kingdoms would have been enough, hell most people would have been fine with taking Harenhall and settling into obscurity. A nice duke level lord is probably the safest position on the continent, big enough so most people wont fuck with you but not so so big that you'll probably ever actually get blamed for anything, or be the focus of attention most of the time, allowing you to shift allegiances as needed fucking and feasting till you hopefully die of old age fathering lots of children.

Littlefinger has been about one thing(2 if you count his unkillable cat boner), the game. Even if his playing field of it is reduced to playing two teenage girls against each other i don't think he will ever give it up until he dies, even if he does become king some how.

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Really Hbo really

[Sooba]

Jon and Rhaegal, Daenerys and Drogo, Tyrion and Viserion.

The last one was hinted in one of the Tyrion sample chapters of AWOW, where after a game of cyvasse he picks up a white dragon figurine covered in blood (the colour of Lannisters). Thus we have 3 Targaryens for the 3 dragons.

And Viserion's repeated interaction with lion imagery, and his colours matching that of a "pale lion" which is also conveniently tied to Tyrion in the House of the Undying, and his breath being Lannister colours, and so on and so forth... :P

Rhaegal is harder to place. Midnight Green and Orange are odd colours that don't easily have a match anywhere I can think of in ASoIaF. Jon is obviously the "leftover" Targaryen. It's just hard to know if Rhaegal's colours are not important, or if they're representing something we haven't connected yet. It would be surprising if they meant nothing, since Drogon and Viserion very clearly have colours meant to represent something.

That being said, I'm sure D&D will find some way to fuck it up anyway. :P

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I don't believe we should take these prophecy too seriously. The "dragon has three heads" is Rhaegar's own lecture of a prophecy, as he is convinced that the Prince That Was Promised will come through him (an idea implanted by his father or even grand-father). The same thing about Azor Ahaï. In times of turmoils, people will try to look for signs of the fullfilment of prophecies, just like some millenarists reading the Apocalypse of St John are trying to look for signs of the end of times and Judgement Day in events of our days. And everyone will read it in its own way. Like the Red Comet in ASoIaF. So, must there really be an Azor Ahaï? Even with his resurrection, is Jon really the real McCoy? Or is it Dany? Must the dragons really have three riders? Do they have to be Targaryens? We can't deny prophecies influence the characters, but do they really have any reality?

Prophecies definitely have a reality for the reader. The best example of the reader/character dichotomy is the Ghost of High Heart speaking of her visions of Balon's death at the hand of a faceless man hired by his brother (or Euron is a FM. Either way...) To the BWB it's complete gobbledygook and may have caused problems if they tried to make any plans based on it. To the reader, it's fairly clear and it functions very well as a literary device explaining how Balon died without needing to devote a larger portion to it.

The fact that this was mystically presented in a vision at the House of the Undying indicates that it's more than just Rhaegar's interpretation. Each one of those visions had important details. That being said, I have seen explanations that account for differences in what "three heads" might mean. I don't agree with them, but it's there.

Like you I don't think it necessarily correlates directly to "dragon riders". On the other hand I do think it correlates to Targaryens, since the whole point of the statement is using Targaryen heraldry as its imagery. I'm not sure how much more could be gleaned from it though. ie. Who's AA, who's TPTWP, the last hero, etc. Honestly I think it's just meant to be a clue to look for masked Targs. :P

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Tyrion has already shown that he's not resistant to fire. In the beginning of the show he was with Shae and Bronn in a tent and they were playing a drinking game. They would hold their hands over an open flame to see who could hold it there the longest. Tyrion couldn't hold it very long, but Shae could, which caused Tyrion to comment about it.

Yeah, the show introducing Fire Immunity for one person kinda screwed everything up and causes weird expectations for other characters.

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I can't deny that the last two books were, for me, far less interesting/enjoyable than the first three for the above reason.

I find they're far more trouble for people who felt the story effectively ended with the first natural "book" he had written - (which became 3 1/2). People didn't want to become invested in the newer storylines and characters, because the older ones weren't resolved yet. In short, it violated their monkeysphere. I also found massive amounts of imagery and foreshadowing, and if that's not your bag the later books seem to have a lot of odd extraneous detail.



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Not so mysteriously, looting mobs is classic as it gets.

Thank you greenfire, now I need to stat out an Arya character in D&D 3.5 and 5e. You burned my evening.

Murder hobos indeed.


Aside: the knife in that photo has far too ornate a handle. The whole point was that it was rather unremarkable in fashion (first glance) but made of exceedingly rare materials. Also:

[Astalnar]

And Rhaegal's repeated interaction with lion imagery, and his colours matching that of a "pale lion" which is also conveniently tied to Tyrion in the House of the Undying, and his breath being Lannister colours, and so on and so forth... :P

Rhaegal is harder to place. Midnight Green and Orange are odd colours that don't easily have a match anywhere I can think of in ASoIaF. Jon is obviously the "leftover" Targaryen. It's just hard to know if Rhaegal's colours are not important, or if they're representing something we haven't connected yet. It would be surprising if they meant nothing, since Drogon and Viserion very clearly have colours meant to represent something.

That being said, I'm sure D&D will find some way to fuck it up anyway. :P

"The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident."
—Daenerys Targaryen

That's an explanation as good as any, and right from the horse's mouth. I wasn't aware of any lion imagery connected to Rhaegal. But then again, It's been half a decade since I last read the books. Could you please provide the relevant parts?