[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Gallahadd]

And Ned says to Jon, "You might not have my name, but you have my blood". We never hear him directly refer to him as son, but that they shared blood. Obviously, there could be reasons for this, to spare Cat's feelings, however this also hints at R+L=J.

Indeed, the way he phrased that is HIGHLY suspect.

Also: Just noticed he's been banhammered... #rekt, and a highfive to whichever mod finally put him out of our misery.

[MrTharne]

How convenient for Euron that the Sand Snake's weapons didn't have poison on anymore...

Well at least they're dead.

[Gallahadd]

To be fair, they weren't expecting to be attacked. The poison is only applied right before combat, to minimise the potential for accidents.

Also... We haven't seen the fallout yet, there is still every change he WAS poisoned. Just with a slower acting poison than the one Red Viper used.

Also: Did we actually see any of the Sand Snakes injure Euron?

[MrTharne]

Also: Did we actually see any of the Sand Snakes injure Euron?

He took the spear in his side and I think the second girl cut him with a knife on his leg.

[Deleted]

Only one of the Sand Snakes uses poison, thats Tyene, the one that was protecting Ellaria.

[PACOX]

The entire ToJ makes absolutely no sense if Jon isnt a Targaryn. Literally why else would they show the scene? What purpose would it be for Ned to hide the parentage of Jon if his sister was knocked up by some other dude? It certainly wouldve been a lot easier on Jon and Ned. I dont think anyone wouldve question him saying that he brought back his sisters kid if the father was just some random dude. Robert might have been ticked off but he wouldve gotten over it being he was a newly crowned king banging anything able and willing (sometimes not).

[Deleted]

Is there evidence enough to support it, given GRRM's notoriously vague storytelling? (see Maggy the Frog and the Valonqar, see the Prince Who Was Promised, see Azor Ahai) I think there is, and a large majority of the readers agree.

I don't think GRRM is even vague about this. There are so many hints about R+L=J, I don't even consider it a theory anymore. The one hint you didn't mention was Dany seeing a blue rose in the Wall in House of Undying. It's just so obvious what it means, I can't understand people not believing the theory once they've found out about it.

One of the biggest misconception about Martin that many reader have, in my opinion, is that Martin is very subtle with his mysteries. He is not. Martin tends to hide his mysteries and future plot twists in plain sight. He foreshadowed Ned's death with a not subtle at all dead direwolf in the beginning. He foreshadowed the Red Wedding by literally showing it in House of Undying, the attentive reader just had to connect the dots. Gravedigger = the Hound is very apparent in the books once you notice it. The same with R+L=J - it is just that obvious. Martin writes in a way so that a reader on first read is shocked by a plot twist, but on reread starts notices all the foreshadowing and is surprised how he didn't get it earlier. It's just he didn't take into account that the series will take him decades to write and that it would be so popular, people would analyse it and overanylise it and all of his "obvious in hindsight" plot twists would be revealed before he wrote them.

[Julian Rayne]

So how is Theon going to get back to land? Is he waiting for Gendry to pick him up?

[Ilikegreenfire]

So how is Theon going to get back to land? Is he waiting for Gendry to pick him up?

Yara was sailing along the coast, he'd just wait for the sun to come up and swim west.

[Deleted]

The dude will NEVER finish the 7th book. He will be in the ground. The 6th book is probably 2-3 years away. That's 9 years to release the 6th one. He isn't gonna make it. Gonna suck for all of you "canon" die hards that are left hanging. You will be left with the show's conclusion or no conclusion at all.

Mmm too fat n old...he ought to exercise instead of stuffing his face with donuts n watching incest porn online all day....

[rogueMatthias]

They don't take the GOT universe are serious as GRRM does. Euron is completly out of place..

Agree 100%.

I just found the whole end of the episode silly though. Even if you ignore the whole 'SURPRISE! HERE"S A WHOLE FUCKING FLEET" then its still raises so many WTF questions that it was just nonsensical; embarrassingly so. They just need to give Euron a catchphrase and he can be a walking meme.

They seem to sometimes get some "cool" idea in their head, and then all logic goes out the window. Even a show about dragons and ice people has to follow its own logic.

Ellaria and the Sandsnakes are another great example of this. They had promise at the start, but then decided to avenge Oberyn by.... killing the girl he promised to protect, and his (innocent) nephew, his brother and then between them just took over the whole of Dorne... and all the people and army were just ok with this because.. reasons?

Well at least the Sandsnakes are mostly dead now. That's at least one plus that came out of the ending.

[Julian Rayne]

They just need to give Euron a catchphrase and he can be a walking meme.

I'm the Juggernaut, Bitch!

[Gallahadd]

Dany seeing a blue rose in the Wall in House of Undying

Gah, can't believe I forgot that! Damn, I knew I was missing one...

And maybe storytelling was the wrong word... What I mean is that there isn't a single prophecy, or a single theory attatched to one that doesn't apply to about three seperate people. GRRM likes to include a little wiggleroom for himself, which is fair enough as it gives us stuff to debate.

However... I don't honestly see much wiggleroom left in R+L=J.

[RobertoCarlos]

So how is Theon going to get back to land? Is he waiting for Gendry to pick him up?

The way D&D is racing towards the finish line throwing out fan service left and right I would not be surprised.

[Deleted]

The Sandsnakes were a complete dumpster fire - I think we can all agree on that.
To the end they were pointless, irritating and illogical.

Sad to see bad pussay go though - we will never see the like of her tits again.
Or maybe we will once more before she's made to drink poison, or raped by the Mountain or whatever other twisted shit Cersei puts her through for that they did to Myrcella.

[Sooba]

And the problem with the Arya line is "that isn't you," suggests Arya doesn't think Nym can change, when she herself has been across the Narrow Sea and trained to be a faceless assassin. She's literally "nobody" now but Nym somehow has some unimpeachable, unchangeable character? Sloppy writing.

I'm rather confused by your issue with this particular portion. (And don't get me wrong, I've had plenty of "..." moments in the last episode.) It's not some treatise on Nym's unchangeability, but rather Arya is acknowledging Nym's true nature. A nature she herself shares. That's why she smiles. She appreciates Nym's choice to be free, even if it's bittersweet.

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No that's not what she meant by "that isn't you" at all...

It was literally a throwback to season one. She was saying "come with me... come back to winterfell" and Nymeria turned her back... "That isn't you" in the context she said it is basically acknowledging "yeah, going back to Winterfell, being a pet, that's not you..."

This precisely.

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Euron didn't have a fleet, at least not one numbering near 1000 during his exile. He had the Silence. Asha stole the 100 best ships on the Iron isles, after that Euron had the Ironborn scour the islands for timber to build the Iron fleet, a good chuck of it wasn't even under construction until after Asha and theon left, she had no idea what Euron was up to or how big his fleet was. The fleet could have been as small as 201 ships before they lefft and Euron would have had the majority.

Not... quite. Firstly, the idea that the Iron Isles would suddenly have all this timber for building is really odd, given their relative lack of trees. That's why they needed the wolfswood in the North. Which they no longer have. Secondly, he's supposed to have built this fleet that quickly? Thirdly, you're dramatically underestimating Dany's fleet. She had three fleets at her command. The Warfleet of the Wise Masters, the Arbor fleet (Olenna), and the portion of the Iron Fleet loyal to Asha. The Arbor fleet alone is the single largest fleet in Westeros...

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the transition tho...

Yeah, that was rough, haha. Well done, but... eugh.

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She's power grabbing without really realizing it. She learned it from Cersei and to a lesser extent, Olenna.

She won't even have to, though. Jon very clearly gives her command of the situation in the North. Presumably he'll be gone for some time.

[RobertoCarlos]

The "that isnt you" line is a throwback to arya talking to Ned in season 1 when Ned was telling her one day she will be a lady in a castle and have sons and daughters and arya replies that isnt her.

[Sooba]

This is a complaint i share too. These two episodes, despite their lack of action (except for the Battle of the Krakens) are filled with character interactions which overall i found enjoyable.

I had heard/read in advance that we were getting a GY and Missandei sex scene and what i did as soon as i saw was skip forward. Screw that, a pile of shite in an overall enjoyable episode. Hell, i even went back a few times to watch the Arya/Hot Pie moment.

I can't complain about the GW/Miss scenes on their own merit. They're not that bad. I just know what the excised with regards to the story, and that's the part that gets me. "You don't get LSH or a Dorne that makes sense, but here's some nice eye candy no matter your orientation." I mean, I guess?

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The "that isnt you" line is a throwback to arya talking to Ned in season 1 when Ned was telling her one day she will be a lady in a castle and have sons and daughters and arya replies that isnt her.

Yes. As was said earlier.

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/Snip

We had the Olenna "Tyrion is bad because he's a man" speech (which, by the way, is certainly foreshadowing for some mistake Tyrion will make, probably in the next episode, because that's how the show works now).

/Snip

I think you're onto something but are taking your Garian-flavoured axe grinding a bit too far. It's fairly clear that Tyrion's proposed plan of action just fell apart. No need for him to make a mistake. Rather, the important part of that one-on-one conversation with Olenna was the statement "You are a dragon". Tyrion's plan has already fallen apart. Now comes Fire and Blood.

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/Snip

True that Baelish is in a weird spot...I think the writers are trying to convey that he's "in the North" and that he has far less sway there because of Northern values and politics. They could do better than having Jon and Sansa tell him off everytime, especially when he saved their lives and their home. FWIW, those scenes of Littlefinger in the hall, scanning the lords, is great. But it always ends with him trying to speak with the Starks and getting shut down immediately.

BTW - Still really shocked how chill everyone is with Euron's conveniently executed naval attack. Not only that but he's now a fan favorite all of the sudden. Seems a little too TWD to me. Also reminiscent of Breaking Bad - where the final antagonists seemed rush, shallow and OP compared to the brilliant villains that preceded them.



I tend to believe Varys. Remember in Season 1 Ned asked him who he serves, and he replied "the realm, my lord. Someone must." While it seemed cryptic at the time, many of his actions since have backed that. For one he sided with Tyrion who was one of the few elites in King's Landing that had a lick of honor.

Also in one of his exchanges with Baelish, he displayed a hatred for chaotic political environments which claim the lives of thousands. Basically, Varys is using his skillset to aid someone that HE feels is suited to rule.

I like your analysis. I think you're quite right about Varys. (Particularly show Varys, who has no other machinations in the works.)

LF will be back in the picture. Jon is leaving. The Lords won't accord Sansa quite the same level of respect. The political situation in the North will become potentially far more volatile.

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Aren't their armies there? Winterfell is the HQ for the war to come after all

Winterfell also had the "Winter city". A sizeable city that becomes inhabited every Winter by the Lords whose homes become uninhabitable. (Umbers, Flints, etc.)

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What was the point of the Nymeria scene, when she was just to leave again? Hadn't seen her since s1 anyway, so it wouldn't have made a difference if they hadn't brought her back at all?

The books make a point of repeatedly talking about wolves (of both the two legged and four legged variety) prowling the Riverlands. The show, until this point, largely hasn't. This seems to be their "Nymeria is still around" moment. There are some (including Alt-Shift-X) who think that Arya will eventually warg her wolf in death.

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The Grey Worm scene was average at best, but wasn't as nearly as annoying as the battle scene at the end. The scene was too blurry and didn't flow like a combat scene should.

The director who did Battle of the Bastards was needed here. That Jon Snow scene after the charge was absolutely brilliant.

Apart from that. Great episode. The Ayra scene when she finds out Jon is King in the North. Amazing.

I'm not sure that ship battles on the open sea in the dead of night have the same "flow" of land battles in clear daylight. The level of disorientation kinda makes sense.

Agreed on GW/Miss scene. Could have been worse. It's only knowing that they cut other stuff for this. /shrug.

[Sooba]

/snip

I still think Theron did the right thing. Even if it was showing he was still under the effects of Ramses's torture. Nothing he could really do other than get him and his sister killed. At-least she is alive for now.

My gf and I had a conversation about this right after the show. I actually think Theon made the right choice here as well. Had he charged, Euron's immediate reaction would have been to slit Asha's throat and then engage him in battle. Even if he won, he would have lost Asha. Conversely, had he stayed put he would have eventually been attacked by the plunderers and/or taken captive as well. Jumping in the water was the only way to avoid both those fates.

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And Chekhov's ballista... when 3 dragons become 2. Who's going down? My money on Viserion.

For the show? Maybe. Not for the books, methinks. Also, not really Chekhovs. It's directly alluded to as a developed counter to dragons. Not a random introduction to be used later.

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Just bad writing i guess, the whole ironborn arc this season is pretty distasteful deus ex machina imo.

Can we start calling Euron a Bad Pussy Slayer? That's the only redeeming quality of this arc tbh...

Pretty concise precis of the good and bad with Euron's storyline. Bravo.

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Is anyone else bothered by the time lapse from S6 to S7? In one story line we have the Grayjoys (Euron) building a huge armada from scratch, which should take some time. We see little Sam Jr. getting older. And Sam seems to go through untold number of days as a maester-in-training.

But Denarys merely crosses the Narrow Sea.

I'm sure it's just one of those nerdy-nit-picky things, but still odd.

This is because Dany and co. had their fast-forward at the end of last season, with Varys seemingly warping all over. With that context, everyone has had a bit of time. Still doesn't solve the Iron Fleet expansion, though. :P

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It did take time, he started building right after yara left, Yara had to go all the way to mereen, and she made frequent stops along the way to whore then she had to talk with dany then they had to wait for the Reach and Dorne ships. Then sail all the way back to dragonstone, that's multiple months, that's multiple months for Euron to build his ships and sail to Kl.

With what timber? The iron Islands don't have enough left for a full on fleet expansion, that was one of the reasons they invaded the stony shore to begin with. They're also relatively underpopulated. In the books Euron invades the shield Islands of the reach and has plenty of booty/extra slaves from there. Show Euron has this stuff from where? They lost a significant portion of their military in the North already as well. This power expansion is almost ex nihilo in the show. But they had to have that happen or the battle would've made no sense.

The only thing I can really determine is perhaps they actually had a smaller fleet but were simply better prepared for battle in the open sea. (seasoned marine fighters and element of surprise.) And thus won the action while outnumbered.

[Deleted]

She had three fleets at her command. The Warfleet of the Wise Masters, the Arbor fleet (Olenna), and the portion of the Iron Fleet loyal to Asha. The Arbor fleet alone is the single largest fleet in Westeros...

I don't remember Arbot fleet being this massive to be a thing in the show. And if Euron have really conjured 1000 ships, it could very well dwarf all 3 Dany's fleets, assuming, that for example each has 100-200 ships.