[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[pateuvasiliu]

That works both ways, what about the families of those that Cersei has had killed. All the Tyrell army whos families are left without fathers, those who were in the Sept of Baelor when Cersei ignited it with wildfire. You're picking and choosing things one side has done and forgetting the horrific acts the side you support has done.

No I am not and no matter how many of you build that strawman it's not gonna' happen.

I am not on the Lannister side. I'm on the side of the common people, who were already suffering after prolonged wars and now Daenerys starts a new one.

Learn about Dothraki culture and customs before thinking you know what you're talking about.

When one Khal dies, the warriors rise to take their place. When one does, he becomes the new Khal. They dont all just run off to find another Khal. There is no line of succession. They choose who to follow based on who they believe is the strongest.

They were going to abandon or even kill Daenerys until she got 3 dragons. It had nothing to do with 'strength', she herself has none.

Daenerys killing every Khal with fire while walking out of that same fire unhurt showed immense strength to the Dothraki, thats why they followed her.

Nah it's because they think she's some sort of goddess who birthed dragons and is immune to fire.

While i agree it is hypocrisy that she gets annoyed, the point here is no one "deserves" the throne. As Jorah even tells Dany, Her ancestors didnt claim Westeros because they had a right to, they had no right, they did so because they had dragons and they could.

And this is precisely what's happening here, she wants it because she can.

If she TRULY cared about the people she'd stay in Essos instead of starting a new war, where she can help make the continent a better place. The people in Westeros live way better lives than your average Essos person, Westeros didn't need her to make life better.

She believes she is, she may be wrong. The things Dany has done pales in comparison to what 90% of the characters in the show has done. Shes in a war and she needed to show her strength.

This again? She's not '' in a war '', she started the damn war. Stop excusing war crimes just because it's a war SHE STARTED.

You just seem to spout random nonsense. And call her a foreign invader like some Randall Tarley wannabe

She is a foreign invader, though. Her army is 99.99% foreign and she has a kinslayer ( the greatest crime one could do ), the second most devious person in the series bar Littlefinger and an exiled slaver in her retinue.

She knows nothing of Westeros and its people and she clearly doesn't truly care about its people else she would realise staying away would've been best for the people.

Reading your posts really does make it look like you haven't even seen the whole series of GOT.

I know plenty, it's probably why I can see how she is evil and most of you can't.

You're all caught up in your feminist hero "Khaleesi" instead of looking at the bigger picture from an objective point of view.

Daenerys TWICE wanted to burn King's Landing and take over, it was Tyrion / Jon that stopped her. Those are the people that are truly deserving of ruling, because they are intelligent and kind. Daenerys just has 3 nukes in a war fought with arrows. She has no quality that recommends her for the throne when placed next to those two. Tyrion and Jon have all of the good Daenerys has ( and then some ) and none of her bad.


Stannis understood that a true king would save the kingdom to gain the throne and not the other way around. He went North with his broken army and saved the Night's Watch. Daenerys didn't care, she refused to help even when they found proof of the WWs in the mines.

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Ya and the fact Dany doesnt target them makes her better than Cersei

They had a choice, flee the field or yeild, many did. The lannister lines started to crumble the moment Drogon hit them. And agin they were military combatants.

Still haven't answered me is ned bad for killing a deserter? Is Robb bad becasue he killed Karstark even tho he could have sent him to the wall?

Is Robb bad for sending 2k men to certain death so he could crush the lannister army killing many more thousands? Is jon bad because he killed thousands at the BoB?

Daenerys went there to kill people. If she only wanted the supplies she could've burned them. But she went there to kill and used her monster to do it.


No, Ned and Robb weren't bad. They treated treason with its typical punishment. They acted under the law. Daenerys is outside the law, because she's an invader.


What Robb did was not 'good', no.

Is jon bad because he killed thousands at the BoB?

Of course not, the Boltons killed the Starks and would've attacked Jon either way.

[pateuvasiliu]

Yeah, but killing soldiers is bad because soldiers are just civilians in an army.

But killing civilians is good because they can make stuff for an army.

It's logic, bro.

I never said it's good, I said it's something you'd do in a war, because civilians have a role in the war.

It's still bad, but if I were to attack civilians I wouldn't call myself the second coming of Christ.

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The fact that you keep saying "feminist hero" tells us a lot about why you're so oddly zealous and unreasonable about this.

I'm not unreasonable at all, I've typed pages about why she's in the wrong. Just because you refuse to listen to reason isn't my problem.

And yes, Daenerys has had a lot of arcs that appeals to feminists, I'm sorry that you can't see it but in the books it's fairly obvious that she has some flaws that the writers removed in order to make her a better 'hero'. They've also done the same for Tyrion.

It's also common knowledge that they modified Stannis' arc to make him look much more evil than in the books and have the audience shift towards Daenerys. They wanted her to be the hero that female viewers/feminists flock towards and considering you have people naming their kids "Khaleesi" and kissing her ass no matter what horrible things she does I'd say they managed to quite fine.


The dragon scenes in E4 and E5 were meant to make you stop and think if what she was doing is okay. That people cheered for a flying monster torching people alive shows you that they managed to create their 'icon' that will be supported no matter what.

[pateuvasiliu]

See, this is just the thing. You keep acting like she's the first person in Westeros to kill anyone. It's patently absurd. At every turn you're complaining that she "killed soldiers in a battle" but then excusing every other instance of killing by every other character. And then you turn around and claim everyone else is biased.

I am not excusing any of them, I'm just pointing out that she claims to be better and care about the common people.

Robb or Jon never proclaimed themselves saviors, breakers of the wheel.

Jon had to take back Winterfell or else Ramsay would just kill them after raising his army or wait for the Winter to weaken them and then kill them, not to mention they were the killers of his family.

Robb had to go to war for Ned and when Ned was killed he had to avenge him.


Daenerys is invading for the luls. She's had no trouble from Westeros since Robert died, she had a good thing going on in Essos and that place needed her way more.

[eschatological]

That works both ways, what about the families of those that Cersei has had killed. All the Tyrell army whos families are left without fathers, those who were in the Sept of Baelor when Cersei ignited it with wildfire. You're picking and choosing things one side has done and forgetting the horrific acts the side you support has done.



Learn about Dothraki culture and customs before thinking you know what you're talking about.

When one Khal dies, the warriors rise to take their place. When one does, he becomes the new Khal. They dont all just run off to find another Khal. There is no line of succession. They choose who to follow based on who they believe is the strongest.

Daenerys killing every Khal with fire while walking out of that same fire unhurt showed immense strength to the Dothraki, thats why they followed her. If they still didnt believe she was strong, they could of and would of left to form their own Khalasar. But they follow strength above all else and they saw Dany as the strongest so they all fell to their knees acknowledging her strength. They did not fall to their knees because of her dragons because at that point in time very few of the Dothraki even knew if she truly did have Dragons. None of them were in her Khalasar before so they had probably never seen her dragons.

Also if you remember in S1 Dany game those who remained with her a choice to remain by her side in her new Khalasar or leave. Many left, but some stayed anyway even before her Dragons were born so exactly how you came to the conclusion they spared her life because she had dragons is quite weird.

Just a point of contention: Dany didn't kill any khals. In fact, 3 warriors came out of her Khalasar and formed their own kahl-doms, and rode off with the vast majority of her people. She herself would have been killed if the Dothraki didn't have an actual tradition they followed re: old khals wives. Some stayed - but it was fairly clear they didn't have a choice. They were the old, crippled, and very weak who the khals didn't want and who couldn't make it on her own. The only exception were Khal Drogo's three outriders, who swore an oath to accompany her to Vaes Dothrak, and then enforced her will as Khaleesi - after her dragons were born. She didn't kill any khal with fire, that was a funeral pyre for Drogo that she walked into and came out unburnt. She did burn a witch in that pyre, but no one would have cared about that.

Her khalasar certainly grew then, but it was all based on the spectacle and ferocity of her dragons. That's what made her "strong." To say she was strong before her dragons were born is - well, entirely fallacious, and, I think, born out of a desire to empower Dany as a character outside of her dragons. It's fairly clear in both the books and the show that they're trying to question the premise of Dany's strength, mentally and emotionally.

[Ivanstone]

Daenerys is invading for the luls. She's had no trouble from Westeros since Robert died, she had a good thing going on in Essos and that place needed her way more.

She is still the rightful queen of Westeros. She believes she can be better. I at least think she can be better than Cersei. She probably thinks she can be a positive influence on both continents.

Even though she was raised in Essos and mostly didn't know any Westerosi doesn't mean that she doesn't have any support any Westeros. The number of lords who believe the Targeryens should be in power is non-zero. At minimum the majority of Dorne want Dany on the throne.

[Bae]

No I am not and no matter how many of you build that strawman it's not gonna' happen.

I am not on the Lannister side. I'm on the side of the common people, who were already suffering after prolonged wars and now Daenerys starts a new one.

Ok fair enough, i misunderstood, it really does seem like you're on the lannister side of things though. Maybe look into how you word things so others dont think that.

But before Dany had even sailed over, you seem to forget Dorne and The Reach had decided to take up arms against Cersei. Varys simply brought them into Danys army. So war was going to happen anyway. And while The Reach were not known to be great fighters, The Lannisters would of never been able to take Dorne without help from most of the seven kingdoms. The North and The Vale wouldn't of joined the Lannisters, The Stormlands has no army left. The riverlands could join but the Freys and the Tully army had been decimated. The army of Lannisters, Iron Islands and The Riverlands wouldnt be able to take Dorne. The Targaryans couldnt even take Dorne with their dragons and the other kingdoms combined. So any way you look at it, war was inevitable from the moment Elleria killed Doran and/or Cersei blew up the sept of Baelor.

They were going to abandon or even kill Daenerys until she got 3 dragons. It had nothing to do with 'strength', she herself has none.

I think you need to rewatch season 1 episode 10 again because thats just not true. She gave them the choice to leave and many did, some stayed and watched her go into the fire then slept on the floor. If they were going to abandon her they would have done that already. Like when Dany said you can go if you want to. Most of those who stayed were not even warriors. 99% of the dothraki had already left as shown in scenes earlier so what on earth are you talking about?

Dany having dragons was literally the last thing we saw in season 1 and there was no hint of desertion or wanting her killed in season 2

Nah it's because they think she's some sort of goddess who birthed dragons and is immune to fire.

You're choosing what to believe there based on nothing. Whereas i have explained Dothraki culture to you, you have chosen to ignore it and accept your own assumption which has no leg to stand on.

Can you at least explain to me why you think they all know she has dragons? No one else in Essos or Westeros believed she had dragons til they saw them. The Dothraki in Vaes Dothrak at the time Dany burnt the great temple had never seen her dragons so why did just this group of people decided "oh shit she has dragons and burnt that temple we better kneel cos shes like some super goddess yo"

And this is precisely what's happening here, she wants it because she can.

If she TRULY cared about the people she'd stay in Essos instead of starting a new war, where she can help make the continent a better place. The people in Westeros live way better lives than your average Essos person, Westeros didn't need her to make life better.

So by that logic, the UK should never of gone to war with germany because thousands of british and germans would be killed. Never mind that Hitlers running around commiting acts of shitness

I get what you're saying, that she acts like its the only reason she does it. But Westeros has been a vile place to live since Robert Baratheon was killed. They had 17 years of peace under him after a horrible time under the mad king. That peace ended when Cersei had Robert kiilled. Which leads me to...

This again? She's not '' in a war '', she started the damn war. Stop excusing war crimes just because it's a war SHE STARTED.

What war crimes? this is Westeros not earth. You cant seem to understand its a different reality. Its happened time and time again in earths history and the victor is usually always perceived as the hero. So should we despise every single leader whos ever started a war for whatever reason? And if were talking about war crimes then all sides have committed war crimes in the show. So really its just a matter of deciding who you thinks caused the least amount of war crimes. Which really cannot be Daenerys by any stretch of the imagination.

Even in Westerosi culture. Yes shes started a war...a war against families who started a war against her family, a family who started a war with previous peoples/families, who started a war against previous peoples/families etc etc

If you're hating on Daenerys for that then you should also be hating the Baratheons, The Starks, The Lannisters, The Arryns, The previous Targaryans, The Andals, The Rhoynar, The First men etc etc.

She is a foreign invader, though. Her army is 99.99% foreign and she has a kinslayer ( the greatest crime one could do ), the second most devious person in the series bar Littlefinger and an exiled slaver in her retinue.

She knows nothing of Westeros and its people and she clearly doesn't truly care about its people else she would realise staying away would've been best for the people.

Her family knew nothing of Westeros, the Andals knew nothing of Westeros, the Rhoynar knew nothing of Westeros, the First men knew nothing of Westeros...

All decided to come over and conquer which led to the characters and peoples in Westeros that you see in the show/in the book.

I know plenty, it's probably why I can see how she is evil and most of you can't.

No you really don't. You just say things that have no hint or reference in the show. Just what you perceive to be true. The fact you believe that horseshit about the Dothraki wanting to kill her but not killing her because she had 3 baby dragons in season 1 proves that.

You're all caught up in your feminist hero "Khaleesi" instead of looking at the bigger picture from an objective point of view.

Amazingly thats what ive done and even agreed with you on some points, yet you still talk an awful lot of guff and have no basis for a lot of your opinions. Which is why people are arguing with you here. The fact you also say we aren't seeing the bigger picture is funny cause thats exactly what you aren't doing. You are simply trying to argue with people who like her just cause you can. You seem to know nothing of the history of Westeros, the books, the show and the overall Lore yet you still feel the need to input your opinions as if they are fact.


You believe Dany is evil, some dont, most wouldnt because they do not like the other characters who want the throne. You wont see anyone elses point of view, so why should they see yours?

[Eaglehorn]

Its a part of who Jon is tho, not being particularly physically impressive is a part of his characterization as the unlikely hero.

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Bronn and Jamie went down river, you can see the battle in the background....

so they rounded up all the tarly and lannister soldier's but thought, hey let's not wait around and see when their commander, a guy who happens to be the queen's brother/lover, try to hold his breath and wait for us to leave? Sounds right...

[Bae]

Just a point of contention: Dany didn't kill any khals. In fact, 3 warriors came out of her Khalasar and formed their own kahl-doms, and rode off with the vast majority of her people. She herself would have been killed if the Dothraki didn't have an actual tradition they followed re: old khals wives. Some stayed - but it was fairly clear they didn't have a choice. They were the old, crippled, and very weak who the khals didn't want and who couldn't make it on her own. The only exception were Khal Drogo's three outriders, who swore an oath to accompany her to Vaes Dothrak, and then enforced her will as Khaleesi - after her dragons were born. She didn't kill any khal with fire, that was a funeral pyre for Drogo that she walked into and came out unburnt. She did burn a witch in that pyre, but no one would have cared about that.

Her khalasar certainly grew then, but it was all based on the spectacle and ferocity of her dragons. That's what made her "strong." To say she was strong before her dragons were born is - well, entirely fallacious, and, I think, born out of a desire to empower Dany as a character outside of her dragons. It's fairly clear in both the books and the show that they're trying to question the premise of Dany's strength, mentally and emotionally.

I think you're misunderstanding me here.

Danerys Killed all the Khals of the Dothraki during their meeting at the Khalar vezhven in s6 ep4 not in s1 ep10. Thats what im referring to when i say she killed every khal with fire. And that point about them not killing her because she has to return to the dosh khaleen is also a good point against what pateuvasiliu is saying about them going to kill her had she not had dragons.

You say they didnt have a choice but they still did. Even if its a choice they felt wasnt a great one. She didnt make them follow. They followed based on wanting to survive. Thats still a choice.

But yes that first paragraph you're talking about the wrong episode that im talking about. Or you may just be referring to the books whereas i am referring to the TV show.

And i dont know where you're getting that i said she was strong before she had the dragons...because i didnt. I said the Dothraki at Vaes Dothrak saw her strength. These are the Dothraki that had never seen her dragons or even knew if they truly existed.

Only in my last paragraph consisting of

"Also if you remember in S1 Dany game those who remained with her a choice to remain by her side in her new Khalasar or leave. Many left, but some stayed anyway even before her Dragons were born so exactly how you came to the conclusion they spared her life because she had dragons is quite weird.

Did i make any mention of season one. The rest of what i said was in reference to her current Khalasar in the show joining her, Not the original small group from season 1.

[Ilikegreenfire]

so they rounded up all the tarly and lannister soldier's but thought, hey let's not wait around and see when their commander, a guy who happens to be the queen's brother/lover, try to hold his breath and wait for us to leave? Sounds right...

They swam down river.... Well Bronn Swam Jamie half drowns, hence the you could have killed me line. The only one There who knew who Jamie was was Tyrion, and he isn't exactly on the best terms with dany right now.

[eschatological]

I think you're misunderstanding me here.

Danerys Killed all the Khals of the Dothraki during their meeting at the Khalar vezhven in s6 ep4 not in s1 ep10. Thats what im referring to when i say she killed every khal with fire. And that point about them not killing her because she has to return to the dosh khaleen is also a good point against what pateuvasiliu is saying about them going to kill her had she not had dragons.

You say they didnt have a choice but they still did. Even if its a choice they felt wasnt a great one. She didnt make them follow. They followed based on wanting to survive. Thats still a choice.

But yes that first paragraph you're talking about the wrong episode that im talking about. Or you may just be referring to the books whereas i am referring to the TV show.

And i dont know where you're getting that i said she was strong before she had the dragons...because i didnt. I said the Dothraki at Vaes Dothrak saw her strength. These are the Dothraki that had never seen her dragons or even knew if they truly existed.

Only in my last paragraph consisting of

Did i make any mention of season one. The rest of what i said was in reference to her current Khalasar in the show joining her, Not the original small group from season 1.

In the books she never went to Vaes Dothrak. That episode (which wasn't in s1) was not her strength alone, but with the help of other dosh khaleen, and it was done in a city which forbade violence. In other words, she broke the fundamental rule of the city to ambush them all, and got away with it on a technicality (that didn't make sense, logically, at the time) that she had used no blade.

[pateuvasiliu]

She is still the rightful queen of Westeros. She believes she can be better. I at least think she can be better than Cersei. She probably thinks she can be a positive influence on both continents.

Even though she was raised in Essos and mostly didn't know any Westerosi doesn't mean that she doesn't have any support any Westeros. The number of lords who believe the Targeryens should be in power is non-zero. At minimum the majority of Dorne want Dany on the throne.

By what rights? By right of conquest? No, Robert was.

Is her being slightly better than Cersei worth thousands of deaths?

But before Dany had even sailed over, you seem to forget Dorne and The Reach had decided to take up arms against Cersei.

They weren't going anywhere without Daenerys. She gave them the means to go to war. Alone they would've lost.

The Targaryans couldnt even take Dorne with their dragons and the other kingdoms combined.

From what I recall the Targaryans never went to Dorne with a giant army, they sent dragons and the dragon got shot down by a ballista. As cool as Dorne is I doubt it would survive the armies of several kingdoms.

Can you at least explain to me why you think they all know she has dragons? No one else in Essos or Westeros believed she had dragons til they saw them. The Dothraki in Vaes Dothrak at the time Dany burnt the great temple had never seen her dragons so why did just this group of people decided "oh shit she has dragons and burnt that temple we better kneel cos shes like some super goddess yo

Because she came out of a burning house unburnt and they probably heard stories. So her not being burned confirmed said stories.

So by that logic, the UK should never of gone to war with germany because thousands of british and germans would be killed. Never mind that Hitlers running around commiting acts of shitness

Cersei wasn't exterminating kingdoms let's not compare her to Nazi Germany, which was on a conquest path that would've sooner or later included the UK.

Its happened time and time again in earths history and the victor is usually always perceived as the hero. So should we despise every single leader whos ever started a war for whatever reason? And if were talking about war crimes then all sides have committed war crimes in the show.

Jon and Robb didn't execute prisoners.

Even in Westerosi culture. Yes shes started a war...a war against families who started a war against her family

Yeah no, you don't get to paint the Rebellion as the bad guys. The Targaryens earned that civil war. Aerys was a mad fuck who burned people alive and then demanded Robert and Ned's heads.

He deserved it.

so why should they see yours?

I couldn't care less if you agree with me or not.

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You seem to know nothing of the history of Westeros, the books,

Now you just prove you haven't read my posts. I clearly mentioned they changed Daenerys and Tyrion to make them more likeable and made Stannis far worse than he was in the books.

[callipygoustp]

Dany as evil as Cersei? Someone has one hell of an imagination... or being purposefully disingenuous for kicks.

[melodramocracy]

They swam down river.... Well Bronn Swam Jamie half drowns, hence the you could have killed me line. The only one There who knew who Jamie was was Tyrion, and he isn't exactly on the best terms with dany right now.

They didn't swim all that far at all, when they come up for air, they're more or less right where they were initially, given that they see all the aftermath around them. What the show's implying is that they were able to just hold their breath for 20-30 minutes while Dany got the spear out, took off, and her troops rounded up all the Lannister army folk to march them towards their ultimatum.

*magic*

[pateuvasiliu]

Dany as evil as Cersei? Someone has one hell of an imagination... or being purposefully disingenuous for kicks.

She's not as bad but she's not good enough that a civil war in her name would seem like a good idea.

[Ilikegreenfire]

They didn't swim all that far at all, when they come up for air, they're more or less right where they were initially, given that they see all the aftermath around them. What the show's implying is that they were able to just hold their breath for 20-30 minutes while Dany got the spear out, took off, and her troops rounded up all the Lannister army folk to march them towards their ultimatum.

*magic*

No they aren't they are down river, you can see the burning fields behind them but no burning where they currently are. They didn't stay still and hold their breath they swam down river..

[callipygoustp]

She's not as bad but she's not good enough that a civil war in her name would seem like a good idea.

Doesn't change what I said one bit.

[Ilikegreenfire]

She's not as bad but she's not good enough that a civil war in her name would seem like a good idea.

One leveled an entire district of a major city, the other has dragons and is chill as long as you bend the knee, i know who i would support.

[Jastall]

One leveled an entire district of a major city, the other has dragons and is chill as long as you bend the knee, i know who i would support.

I mean, Cercei is also your best friend as long you bend the knee. Her beef is with literally everyone who doesn't. Which is a lot of people.

Not that I think Dany is as bad as Cercei by any means but she's also proven she is no angel, and the Breaker of Chains shenanigans won't be enough to win over the Westerosi when she has an army of savages at her back.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Whelp episode 6 was shown for an hour in spain Don't click that link unless you want to see mega spoilers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/co...for/?limit=500

Pretty much confirms the night king has been toying with Sam Jon and Bran for years, using them as tools in his master plan he takes down Viserion so easily.

The night king has been shown to have warging and greensight powers, or at east the power to counter bran while he is using them.

The night king has been observing the south this whole time, observing Jon and Dany, waiting until they are in love, to march on eastwatch, its been what a year or more since hardholme, if he could cross the wall he would have done it.

Sam: He had Sam spared way back at the fist of the firstmen because he knew he and Jon were friends and that Sam a bookish boy would eventually become a Maester, that would eventually lead jon to the the massive dragonglass deposit on dragonstone, and into Dany's heart.

Bran: I always wondered how Meera managed to escape such a massive horde of tireless undead while hauling bran, the night king let her go, sent a few wights to make a show of it sure, but let her go so Bran would be around to send the ravens to spy on him and alert Jon on dragonstone to make him come north of the wall again.

Jon: He wanted Jon to lead a party or army north past the wall, so he could captured him and lure Dany and her dragons out past it. So he could kill one to melt the wall

Archmaester Ebrose was right and the wall would have protected everyone till Jon Sam and Bran fucked things up, if they had just done nothing he would have just stayed trapped beyond the wall stuck in impotent rage.

[pateuvasiliu]

One leveled an entire district of a major city, the other has dragons and is chill as long as you bend the knee, i know who i would support.

Daenerys was going to burn the whole city, Tyrion/Jon made her reconsider.

And Cersei is chill if you stay out of her way. They aren't that different.