[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[pateuvasiliu]

Its undeniably fuzzy but the Tyrell's army is not of that size. That number would include their bannerman and a substantial amount of those chose Cersei. Most significantly those would include the Tarly's.

There is no way the Tarly's had anywhere near to what the Tyrells had, they're a Great House for a reason.

Even if they only had 10,000 from their once 100,000 ( which is already insane ) they should still be able to hold the castle easily.

[Ivanstone]

There is no way the Tarly's had anywhere near to what the Tyrells had, they're a Great House for a reason.

Even if they only had 10,000 from their once 100,000 ( which is already insane ) they should still be able to hold the castle easily.

A Great House is a Great House because of the numbers of Bannermen they have sworn to them. If they chose to abandon them then they're only a great house in name only.

It was implied in an earlier episode that multiple Bannermen were considering abandoning the Tyrells. The Tarly's are the most significant.

According to the TV wiki, they claimed that Highgarden was virtually undefnded although I'm unsure why they are making that claim.

[pateuvasiliu]

A Great House is a Great House because of the numbers of Bannermen they have sworn to them. If they chose to abandon them then they're only a great house in name only.

It was implied in an earlier episode that multiple Bannermen were considering abandoning the Tyrells. The Tarly's are the most significant.

According to the TV wiki, they claimed that Highgarden was virtually undefnded although I'm unsure why they are making that claim.

C'mon man how MANY of the Reach's bannermen could go away. Let's look at some facts:

1. The Tyrells were by far the strongest house in Westeros during and after the war of the 5 kings

2. The Lannisters are broke, King's Landing is starving

3. The Tyrells only fought in 1 battle in the entire War

Why would the bannermen flock to the Lannisters?

[Deleted]

C'mon man how MANY of the Reach's bannermen could go away. Let's look at some facts:

1. The Tyrells were by far the strongest house in Westeros during and after the war of the 5 kings

2. The Lannisters are broke, King's Landing is starving

3. The Tyrells only fought in 1 battle in the entire War

Why would the bannermen flock to the Lannisters?

The Tyrells had the largest army because of the amount of bannerman they had.

The Lannisters didn't need all the Tyrells bannerman to switch over to them, all they needed was them not to turn up to defend Highgarden.

[Ivanstone]

C'mon man how MANY of the Reach's bannermen could go away. Let's look at some facts:

1. The Tyrells were by far the strongest house in Westeros during and after the war of the 5 kings

2. The Lannisters are broke, King's Landing is starving

3. The Tyrells only fought in 1 battle in the entire War

Why would the bannermen flock to the Lannisters?

1. After Renly died they supported the Bara/Lannisters and swore oaths to do that.
2. Not common knowledge, not important.
3. Not really relevant. Or completely true.

They swore an oath to support the Iron Throne (Cersei) and to the Tyrells (Their Great House). Some believe the former is important than the latter and aren't as aware of her crimes as we are. Randyl Tarly's word also has weight. The Tyrells may be good at making money but Tarly is their primary General and probably the best General in Westeros. Hell, he hates Cersei and switched sides. There's also no reason for an individual bannerman to want to deal with Dany or ally themselves with Dorne.

It simply looks like Cersei was convincing back in episode 2 even if we know she's full of shit.

[pateuvasiliu]

Of course it's relevant that the Tyrells didn't fight in the War. Means their armies and supplies would be intact whereas the Lannisters lost plenty men.

[Ivanstone]

Of course it's relevant that the Tyrells didn't fight in the War. Means their armies and supplies would be intact whereas the Lannisters lost plenty men.

They did though. Finishing Stannis at Blackwater was the big one but they continued fighting against the Starks and Tullys until the latter were finished. They are in much better shape than everyone except Dorne and Arryn.

[pateuvasiliu]

They did though. Finishing Stannis at Blackwater was the big one but they continued fighting against the Starks and Tullys until the latter were finished. They are in much better shape than everyone except Dorne and Arryn.

They fought briefly at Blackwater, that fight was won the second Tywin got Stannis from behind.

The Tyrells should have been in the best shape of all kingdoms, since Dorne and the Vale don't have huge armies.

[Frontenac]

C'mon man how MANY of the Reach's bannermen could go away. Let's look at some facts:

1. The Tyrells were by far the strongest house in Westeros during and after the war of the 5 kings

2. The Lannisters are broke, King's Landing is starving

3. The Tyrells only fought in 1 battle in the entire War

Why would the bannermen flock to the Lannisters?

As other said, the Tyrells are only as strong as the bannermen that follow them. Of all the Great Houses of Westeros, they had the shakiest position. The Tyrells were installed as Lord Paramount of the Reach by Aegon Targaryen, although they were a minor house compared to others who had better claims to Highgarden (the Florents, to name one, the familly of Queen Selyse Baratheon and Randyll Tarly's wife). With Robert's Rebellion, they had lost their link to the Targaryen. I believe that's why Mace Tyrell wanted so much to make Margaery the Queen of... any Baratheon King, really. It would have cemented the alliance between the Tyrells and the Baratheons and send a message to some bannermen that the Tyrells had the King's support.

But now, thanks to Cersei, the Tyrells are gone. Olenna Tyrell is not a true Tyrell. She was born a Redwyne, so her hold on Highgarden and the Reach was already in danger. And then here she goes supporting Daenerys Targaryen, who is invading Westeros with a raving Dothraki Horde and an army of Unsullied. And three dragons. You remember Tarly's reaction when he learned that Gilly was a Wildling? What opinion do you think he has on the Dothraki and the slave eunuchs? Cersei played the card of "national" solidarity before an invading army, and it worked. In the end, Olenna only had the men that was left from her own army. Much of that army probably already perished in King's Landing. There were many Tyrell soldiers before the explosion of the Sept of Baelor. Do you really believe Cersei let them go?

[Gemini Soul]

Last weeks episode was awesome, can't wait to see Jon+Dragon scene.

[Thelxi]

I wish the next episode would leak already.

[Deleted]

As other said, the Tyrells are only as strong as the bannermen that follow them. Of all the Great Houses of Westeros, they had the shakiest position. The Tyrells were installed as Lord Paramount of the Reach by Aegon Targaryen, although they were a minor house compared to others who had better claims to Highgarden (the Florents, to name one, the familly of Queen Selyse Baratheon and Randyll Tarly's wife). With Robert's Rebellion, they had lost their link to the Targaryen. I believe that's why Mace Tyrell wanted so much to make Margaery the Queen of... any Baratheon King, really. It would have cemented the alliance between the Tyrells and the Baratheons and send a message to some bannermen that the Tyrells had the King's support.

But now, thanks to Cersei, the Tyrells are gone. Olenna Tyrell is not a true Tyrell. She was born a Redwyne, so her hold on Highgarden and the Reach was already in danger. And then here she goes supporting Daenerys Targaryen, who is invading Westeros with a raving Dothraki Horde and an army of Unsullied. And three dragons. You remember Tarly's reaction when he learned that Gilly was a Wildling? What opinion do you think he has on the Dothraki and the slave eunuchs? Cersei played the card of "national" solidarity before an invading army, and it worked. In the end, Olenna only had the men that was left from her own army. Much of that army probably already perished in King's Landing. There were many Tyrell soldiers before the explosion of the Sept of Baelor. Do you really believe Cersei let them go?

It doesn't take much for someone like Randyll to dislike people but I feel that he of everyone would respect the unsullied as warriors, their unity skills proffesionalism n ability to follow n carry out orders. He would probably love to lead them.

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The Tyrells had the largest army because of the amount of bannerman they had.

The Lannisters didn't need all the Tyrells bannerman to switch over to them, all they needed was them not to turn up to defend Highgarden.

But no way would they want to switch sides so Cersei would do a bank robbery. Randyll warden of the south but gold going to Cersei instead, he would never have agreed to that robbery of his now own empty vaults...

[Deleted]

But no way would they want to switch sides so Cersei would do a bank robbery. Randyll warden of the south but gold going to Cersei instead, he would never have agreed to that robbery of his now own empty vaults...

What gives you the impression that she told them she was attacking Highgarden for the gold? We already know that they got Tarly to flip sides just by mentioning the Dany bringing the Dothraki.

[Kellorion]

Thinking that Jon orders Theon and crew to Eastwatch with some Dragonglass and that also thats when the BwB show up there. Maybe some reinforcements from Winterfell too. Maybe Brienne. Leaving Littlefinger in a better position.

[Ivanstone]

"Join us and break your oath to the house you swore to so that we can steal all their gold and pay off our bank debt."

"You swore an oath to the Iron Throne and the Tyrell's are traitors."

The bank debt is also not common knowledge.

[Ivanstone]

But that wasn't even Jamie's big selling point. It was basically, "Break your other oath and we'll give you a nice new title when this is over."

That works for Randyl Tarly. But this isn't just about Tarly. The other bannerman can either stick with the Tyrells or maintain their oath to the Iron Throne. The latter can have a variety of reasons for doing so. Standing with Tarly because they think he would be better than the Tyrells is one reason.

[Zoranon]

They fought briefly at Blackwater, that fight was won the second Tywin got Stannis from behind.

The Tyrells should have been in the best shape of all kingdoms, since Dorne and the Vale don't have huge armies.

This is just due to bad storytelling last season, there is no way Ollena could have installed herself as head of house Tyrell and lady paramount of the Reach since she has zero claim to those titles. What would have happened after Tyrells were wiped out (Olenna is not a Tyrell btw) would be a war in the Reach between individual claimants to Highgarden. The same applies to Dorne, Ellaria had even less claim than Olena.

[Frontenac]

Ellaria I totally agree with. The entire Dorne storyline was written horribly in my opinion.

Olenna, on the other hand, was already well known and respected, a powerful figure in the house, the mother of the Lord of Highgarden, and often seen as the effective head of the house even when Mace was alive. It's not unbelievable that everyone would simply accept her as head of the house once Mace died. Maybe not a smart decision, but not an unbelievable one.

Still, the question of succession would remain. Olenna could only be a temporary leader. Logically, she would have chosen a successor. Randyll Tarly could have been a good solution, or a Hightower, or maybe one of her own house, the Redwynes. As her Queen, Daenerys would have accepted her choice. The question is how many houses of the Reach actually supported Daenerys. Not much, it seems.

The other question is how much houses of the Reach actually support Randyll Tarly as Lord Paramount and Cersei as Queen... Maybe we'll get an answer next episode.

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But no way would they want to switch sides so Cersei would do a bank robbery. Randyll warden of the south but gold going to Cersei instead, he would never have agreed to that robbery of his now own empty vaults...

Oh, but he would. The gold of Highgarden (which is not his own anyway) is a small price to pay for the title of Lord Paramount of the Reach. He will reap the benefits of Highgarden fast enough, and so will his son, and all the Tarlys that will follow after him.

[Zoranon]

Ellaria I totally agree with. The entire Dorne storyline was written horribly in my opinion.

Olenna, on the other hand, was already well known and respected, a powerful figure in the house, the mother of the Lord of Highgarden, and often seen as the effective head of the house even when Mace was alive. It's not unbelievable that everyone would simply accept her as head of the house once Mace died. Maybe not a smart decision, but not an unbelievable one.

Sure she had respect and influence but she had no claim to Highgarden. And claims were enormously important in the feudal era, claims and legitimacy of which Olena has zero. Besides there would be several houses with claims to highgarden and I doubt any lord would pass a chance to become lord paramount.

[Ivanstone]

The other question is how much houses of the Reach actually support Randyll Tarly as Lord Paramount and Cersei as Queen... Maybe we'll get an answer next episode.

I hope not. There's been intense discussion the past week about bannerman loyalty and military strategy.

It could all be undone by everyone bending the knee to Dany because they're scared of dragons. Harrenhal is strong reminder of what a dragon can do to a castle and the people inside of it.