Shadowpriest Rotation Issues / Questions

[Jainzar]

hey guys i have some questions

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../zalara/simple

thats my char. i know that the gear is not the best yet and that i have too many healing items, but im gearing towards shadow now.

im not sure if im doing the rotation and priority system right tho, since im only doing 12k dps on the dummy and about 15k on raid bosses (single target dps without dmg enhancing effects like the puddles on the omno encounter) which seems too low. we're talking 10man btw.

so i open up with VT (precast it so it lands when the tank pulls) -> DP -> SW:P -> Shadow Fiend > Mind Flay until 1 Shadow Orb is up. then I immediately do a mindblast to get SE buff up and wait for my procs (PT, lightweave, trinket procc) and when those are up i refresh VT and DP. Then i just do the normal rotation. I only try to cast mindblast when theres 3 shadoworbs up, but if SE is about to fall off and i have only 1 shadoworb i will cast MindBlast anyways to maintain the buff. I also use archaengel right before i cast a 3 shadow orb mindblast to maximize the damage on that.

what about mid-fight proc scenarios, should i only refresh vt and dp (even though they are not about to expire) when more than 1 proc is up, or only when all 3 procs are up or should i not even bother? since ill refresh them anyways as soon as they run out?

also ive read here multiple times that ppl want to spam "DP" instead of mindflay when the mob is below 25% ? why the hell would you want to spam a DOT instead of a channeled cast? doesnt make any sense to me

clipping mindflay - should i do it or not? like when i have to refresh a dot but casting mindflay at the moment, clip it or just cast it through and then refresh the dot?


still, im doing only 12k dps and i have absolutely no idea why. im doing okay on encounters like magmaw or omnotron when i can "abuse" the dmg enhancing effects but when it comes to pure single target like atramedes i suck really hard. get outdpsed by nearly every class. and also 12k on the dummy is a joke in my opinion, but i dont know how to fix it.. can anyone help me out?

[Rannir]

First off, you are going for all your socket bonuses, don't do that. Only go for (as a general rule) +10 int or +20 secondary stat ones, and straight int gems in anything that isn't that good. Next you have your haste is painfully low, mostly due to the fact that you have haste (before reforging) on a little less than half your pieces. You should go for haste pieces, then give up all other stats to get hit capped, rather than pick up hit gear and give up stats to get haste. As you your actual rotation, you should refresh DP and VT on your trinket proc, and power torrent (given that VT has more than a couple ticks left). Lightweave is almost too little of a bonus to be worth it for VT, however you can never be too liberal about refreshing DP. This is because Imp DP does more damage per cast time than Mind Flay, it just doesn't have all the little talent bonuses and shadow orb procs than mind flay carries. As for your Mind Blast, (since patch 4.0.6) you should be using it on cooldown, provided you have more than 6 seconds left on Empowered Shadows. if you have even a single shadow orb up, hit mind blast right away (provided that dots don't need refreshing, as they have a higher priority). Clipping Mind Flay is better than missing out on tiny bits of channeling time, its flow into the next one, like a dot. As for spamming DP under 25%, I have never heard of that before, though it might be viable, but I do know that you should be hitting SW on cooldown at under 25%. Your Archangel use is also wrong, you should be using it at a time so it can affect more Mind Flay/Mind Blast/SW and only have one VT refresh during it (assuming you don't need it for mana). Lastly, remember multi-dotting on 2+ target fights and Mind Searing on 4+ target fights.

[Schismev]

hey guys i have some questions

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../zalara/simple

thats my char. i know that the gear is not the best yet and that i have too many healing items, but im gearing towards shadow now.

im not sure if im doing the rotation and priority system right tho, since im only doing 12k dps on the dummy and about 15k on raid bosses (single target dps without dmg enhancing effects like the puddles on the omno encounter) which seems too low. we're talking 10man btw.

so i open up with VT (precast it so it lands when the tank pulls) -> DP -> SW:P -> Shadow Fiend > Mind Flay until 1 Shadow Orb is up. then I immediately do a mindblast to get SE buff up and wait for my procs (PT, lightweave, trinket procc) and when those are up i refresh VT and DP. Then i just do the normal rotation. I only try to cast mindblast when theres 3 shadoworbs up, but if SE is about to fall off and i have only 1 shadoworb i will cast MindBlast anyways to maintain the buff. I also use archaengel right before i cast a 3 shadow orb mindblast to maximize the damage on that.

what about mid-fight proc scenarios, should i only refresh vt and dp (even though they are not about to expire) when more than 1 proc is up, or only when all 3 procs are up or should i not even bother? since ill refresh them anyways as soon as they run out?

also ive read here multiple times that ppl want to spam "DP" instead of mindflay when the mob is below 25% ? why the hell would you want to spam a DOT instead of a channeled cast? doesnt make any sense to me

clipping mindflay - should i do it or not? like when i have to refresh a dot but casting mindflay at the moment, clip it or just cast it through and then refresh the dot?


still, im doing only 12k dps and i have absolutely no idea why. im doing okay on encounters like magmaw or omnotron when i can "abuse" the dmg enhancing effects but when it comes to pure single target like atramedes i suck really hard. get outdpsed by nearly every class. and also 12k on the dummy is a joke in my opinion, but i dont know how to fix it.. can anyone help me out?

They obviously mean SW below 25% due to the fact that it's our "execute" spell. Otherwise, Rannir sounds like he has it right, though I didn't read the entire post tbh.

[Rannir]

yea, sorry for the wall of text there. :P

[Zuziza]

so i open up with VT (precast it so it lands when the tank pulls) -> DP -> SW:P -> Shadow Fiend > Mind Flay until 1 Shadow Orb is up. then I immediately do a mindblast to get SE buff up and wait for my procs (PT, lightweave, trinket procc) and when those are up i refresh VT and DP. Then i just do the normal rotation. I only try to cast mindblast when theres 3 shadoworbs up, but if SE is about to fall off and i have only 1 shadoworb i will cast MindBlast anyways to maintain the buff. I also use archaengel right before i cast a 3 shadow orb mindblast to maximize the damage on that.

You only really need to have 1 orb on MB for it to be better DPS output than MF, so don't wait for all three orbs. I've seen a handful of people even mention 0 orbs (unless ES runs out soon, then just wait for the orb to keep ES up), but my testing on that's been somewhat messy, so I can't personally vouch for it. However, waiting for 3 orbs still isn't worth it, just use it any time you have 1 for sure.

You also want to use Archangel whenever it's convenient; best time is after procs, with all your DoTs JUST refreshed, and before you cast MB. It gives you time to get 5 stacks of Evangelism back for your next DoT refreshes and you can get 3 MB casts in during the duration of Archangel. The procs going aren't necessary to trigger AA, but just make it that much sweeter.

what about mid-fight proc scenarios, should i only refresh vt and dp (even though they are not about to expire) when more than 1 proc is up, or only when all 3 procs are up or should i not even bother? since ill refresh them anyways as soon as they run out?

I'm not a tailor, so I haven't personally tested how much a benefit Lightweave embroidery is, but a decent rule of thumb is that 2 procs are usually huge DPS increases that make refreshing a DoT mid duration worth it. 1 proc is iffy depending on which one exactly and how much damage you'd do otherwise casting MB or MF (your opportunity cost) when you're refreshing. Best way to figure it out is to test on dummies, though it will take a while to ensure one thing's proccing, not another, and that's what makes your DPS go up/down.

also ive read here multiple times that ppl want to spam "DP" instead of mindflay when the mob is below 25% ? why the hell would you want to spam a DOT instead of a channeled cast? doesnt make any sense to me

This is somewhat true, unless you're running low on mana or you can pop Archangel. You're giving up some chance to proc shadow orbs (so your ES uptime may dip), so it may affect your damage from SW: P and VT if you do though. I'd say it depends on how much movement you have to do during the last portion of the fight and whether or not you have an orb in reserve to keep ES up.

clipping mindflay - should i do it or not? like when i have to refresh a dot but casting mindflay at the moment, clip it or just cast it through and then refresh the dot?

Since it's specific to refreshing a DoT, the change they made where the lost channeling time transfers from one MF to the next will not be able to save that last tic. (If it was back to back MF's, clipping no longer applies to those cases.) If something's proccing, I'd say go for for the refresh since you'll get more damage dome from that refresh during a proc than you would from 1 tic of MF. I can't say for sure if there's nothing proccing and you have just over a GCD to refresh.

still, im doing only 12k dps and i have absolutely no idea why. im doing okay on encounters like magmaw or omnotron when i can "abuse" the dmg enhancing effects but when it comes to pure single target like atramedes i suck really hard. get outdpsed by nearly every class. and also 12k on the dummy is a joke in my opinion, but i dont know how to fix it.. can anyone help me out?

I would say it's very much haste gear optimizing (our DPS scales so much with haste, it's a bit insane) and just getting used to the priority of spells that we have. Rotation doesn't really apply to us anymore since it varies not just with movement, but also procs, gear, and minute exceptions to the "rules". If you're only just starting, 12k isn't that bad. Just practice and do your best to learn what to do in each little situation.

Atramedes can be a bit of a pain because moving around messes with us a lot on that fight because it's the only one where we're running around THAT much. It makes refreshing and maximizing the benefit of your procs and CD's much more difficult than other fights would. If you were lowest on Chimaeron, it'd be legitimate "oh gawd, i suck at spriest" concern, but Atramedes is his own little mess that you have to just get used to on an individual basis. That fight should improve once you figure out what works best for moving around a lot (DP spam in general helps greatly on that fight once you have the mana pool), especially when you can time MB+orb and VT refreshes during air phase. Timing Archangel is also a pain on that fight (right after he does his tracking thing on someone else is best for maximum casting time without moving) since it may be inconvenient for refreshing DoTs or casting MB. However, once you've mastered Atramedes, you'll actually have improved a lot as an spriest because that fight makes you improvise a LOT. If you're top DPS on him, you are doing excellent, so make it a goal to aim for. =)

[announced]

yup. use dbm and time burn phases often. like right after he lands. or whenever its safe. i tend to blow SF and AA right as it hits 5 stacks when the fight starts cause that way it'll be refreshed in 90 seconds. still timing is everything.

[zsun]

You only really need to have 1 orb on MB for it to be better DPS output than MF, so don't wait for all three orbs. I've seen a handful of people even mention 0 orbs (unless ES runs out soon, then just wait for the orb to keep ES up), but my testing on that's been somewhat messy, so I can't personally vouch for it. However, waiting for 3 orbs still isn't worth it, just use it any time you have 1 for sure.

That handful of people is right actually. Even with 0 orbs, the DPET of MB is significantly higher than MF. The reason people are casting MB with 1 orb is simply to maximize ES uptime. This is why many people, including Worshaka and New, encourages the use of MB with 0 orbs as long as you have more than 6.5 seconds on the ES timer. However doing so does have a slight risk; since time spent casting 0 orb MB means time not spent MFing, which means a lower chance for an orb proc. Whether or not this risk is worth taking is purely subjective. I personally take risks like this.

so i open up with VT (precast it so it lands when the tank pulls) -> DP -> SW:P -> Shadow Fiend > Mind Flay until 1 Shadow Orb is up. then I immediately do a mindblast to get SE buff up and wait for my procs (PT, lightweave, trinket procc) and when those are up i refresh VT and DP. Then i just do the normal rotation. I only try to cast mindblast when theres 3 shadoworbs up, but if SE is about to fall off and i have only 1 shadoworb i will cast MindBlast anyways to maintain the buff. I also use archaengel right before i cast a 3 shadow orb mindblast to maximize the damage on that.

Looking at your opening rotation, as well as your normal rotation, I would suggest using shadowfiend after the trinkets etc have popped so it can also receive maximum benefit of your spellpower. Because of what I said above and what the above poster has said regarding ES uptime issues, it is generally a bad idea to wait till 3 orbs before MB. In fact there are some studies suggesting that even without the existence of ES buff, the average amount of time taken to wait for 3 orbs and delaying MB casts is not worth the extra damage dealt per orb at low mastery levels.

also ive read here multiple times that ppl want to spam "DP" instead of mindflay when the mob is below 25% ? why the hell would you want to spam a DOT instead of a channeled cast? doesnt make any sense to me

I only heard of either casting SWD on mobs below 25%.. or spamming DP while on the run. But I havent heard of spamming DP on mobs below 25%. My take on this is that it depends on how much health 25% really is, as well as how many people are DPSing. If it is more than slightly 100k in a 5man environment, then I would still cast MF.. But if its the same amount of health in a 10man environment, then you might as well spam DP. In general DP has slightly higher DPET than MF, however DP costs more mana to use, and doesn't generate shadow orbs nor benefit from it

[Deleted]

I also have a question. I have this (bad?) habbit of casting DP when i refresh VT is it bad at all or is it ok? does it increase/decrease in any way? (with those 10k initial dmg and stuff:P)

[zsun]

I also have a question. I have this (bad?) habbit of casting DP when i refresh VT is it bad at all or is it ok? does it increase/decrease in any way? (with those 10k initial dmg and stuff:P)

It is bad in a sense that refreshing DP at the same time as refreshing VT, assuming that DP's duration is nowhere near the end, causes the DPET of the previous DP cast to decrease. It also uses up more mana compared to casting MF instead. My suggestion is to try and get rid of this habit. Only cast both at the same time if both needs refreshing.

[FredMaHead]

http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t112651-...est_cataclysm/
Here's everything you want, everything you need.

[Deleted]

It is bad in a sense that refreshing DP at the same time as refreshing VT, assuming that DP's duration is nowhere near the end, causes the DPET of the previous DP cast to decrease. It also uses up more mana compared to casting MF instead. My suggestion is to try and get rid of this habit. Only cast both at the same time if both needs refreshing.

Thx for the repply.

[MoanaLisa]

There's lots of out-of-date information around. Spriests (and everyone else really) need to know how important it is to keep up with patches, etc. The MB discussion above about orbs and when is a pretty good case. The theorycrafting gave one answer at the beginning of Catyclysm. People absorbed that and I'm sure that many have gone about the game ever since. MB got a big buff not terribly long after Cat dropped and that changed the game with respect to that spell entirely. So at various times, we've had MB with 3, MB with 1 and now MB on CD.

Just keep that in mind when you read stickies and forums. It's common sense but it bears repeating.

My favorite example, to this day, is that at least once every month or so, I run into a tank who never got the memo about Power Word-Shield and rage which became a non-issue a couple of years ago.

Anyway, it's all going to change AGAIN with 4.2 in one way or another.

And @Jainzar specifically, welcome to the purple zoo