10/25 man difficulty

[Cyriaa]

It was never unkillable, how can you explain the fact Korean guilds killed Sinestra in 10man mode? Even Prophecy from EU killed it before the nerf.
A hard boss doesn't mean it is unkillable, it only means it will take you additional time to complete it just like it should be for an Endboss like Sinestra.


But I have to say yet again it is fun you commenting on something you haven't done.

I wasn't talking about Sinestra, but whatever.
And even still, one or two guilds in the WORLD, compared to the other 200+
and you still don't think there's something wrong?

[Algore]

I wasn't talking about Sinestra, but whatever.
I suppose you have a lot of fun talking out of your ass.

....

I suppose you know all about the differences of sinestra between 25 and 10 man with your guild carrying you through one kill.
You must be a pro.

orly?

[Deleted]

Fact: Over 150 25 man guilds have killed Lady Sinestra.

Fact: ~80 10 man guilds have killed Lady Sinestra.

Fact: The highest ranked 10 man guild is #96 overall, Blood Legacy.

Seems to me based on those facts that guilds are performing just fine in the 25 man area. Looks like you guys just need to get better players and not blame the difficulty. Recent nerfs to the 10 man content were simply to bring the difficulty on par with the 25 man content.

Pretty much agree with this, tho 25's tend to be more progressed because most of the more serious/hardcore raiders still prefer / value 25m raiding over 10m.

For the OP, you just need to keep recruiting and performing well and the raiders will come and you can then replace the crappier raiders.
I raid 25m and I'd say my guild consisted of maybe 22-23 "really really good players having 90%+ attendance", but we had to struggle to get it that way.

[Deleted]

Fact: Over 150 25 man guilds have killed Lady Sinestra.

Fact: ~80 10 man guilds have killed Lady Sinestra.

Fact: The highest ranked 10 man guild is #96 overall, Blood Legacy.

Seems to me based on those facts that guilds are performing just fine in the 25 man area. Looks like you guys just need to get better players and not blame the difficulty. Recent nerfs to the 10 man content were simply to bring the difficulty on par with the 25 man content.

Fact: The Highest ranked 10 man guild is #49, Just Enjoy your Playing

Get your facts right

Fact: Ensidia ( 25 man guild ), did not have 25 players to raid during holidays. This lead them to kill Omnitron and Chimaeron on 10 man Heroic mode ( To continue BoT and TotFW in 25 man heroic later that week ).

Ensidia ( world 3 25 man guild )
Just Enjoy~ ( World 1 10 man guild )
Eurasia ( World 2 10 man guild )

Chimaeron 10 Heroic:

Ensidia: Dec 20, 2010 22:51
Just Enjoy Your Playing: Jan 19, 2011 07:31 --- 30 Days after Ensidia.
Eurasia: Jan 22, 2011 09:12 --- 33 Days after Ensidia

Omnitron Defense System 10 Heroic

Ensidia: Dec 16, 2010 15:56
Just Enjoy~: Jan 23, 2011 14:07 --- 38 Days after Ensidia
Eurasia: Feb 5, 2011 07:40 --- 51 Days after Ensidia


Now these are the only bosses the top 25 man guild killed in 10 man, so we can not really compare any more.

But seeing from this, the World 3 25 man guild, killed two 10 man heroic bosses 30/33 and 38/51 days FASTER then the World 1/2 10 man heroic guilds.

May there be a slight possibility that the top 25 man guilds are simply BETTER then the top 10 man guilds? Yes, I think this is a valid consideration.

You can not compare end game 25 to end game 10 since quite frankly, top 25 man guilds are better at playing this game.

[Algore]

Agree with above ^

[elitistniceguy]

You can not compare end game 25 to end game 10 since quite frankly, top 25 man guilds are better at playing this game.

This is an important variable to all of these arguments.

[Algore]

They were supposed to be equally, but the 10-man versions were harder.
That's why they nerfed them, so they would be on the same level as the 26-man version.

First of, how do you know that "10man was harder than 25man, that's why they nerfed them"? Is that something you randomly spit out just now?
No, they nerfed the 10mans because 10man guilds were simply too bad, if you disagree you can look up on the post reflecting when Ensidia killed one 10man boss and when the #1 10man guild killed it.

[Deleted]

They were supposed to be equally, but the 10-man versions were harder.
That's why they nerfed them, so they would be on the same level as the 26-man version.

Though, they did not nerf the fights that were easier in 10 man to be equal to 25 man.
And the 10 man were not harder, they were just badly tested. You see, when 25 man hardcore guilds progress, the bosses are often broken, and gets fixed.
Now, the 25 man guilds do not whine, because they know how this is. However, when the 10 man guilds reach the same boss a couple of months later, because they are not as hardcore as the 25 man guilds, it has some other issues in 10 man, which blizzard eventually fixed.

The bosses simply got "fixed" faster in 25 man, because there are more 25 man end-game raiding guilds.

You compare release state 10 man ( bugged bosses ), to current state ( fixed bosses ) 25 man. If you want to compare something, compare it with V&T 25, Council 25, Al'Akir 25, Cho'Gall 25 prefix, and lets not even get started on sinestra. Constant hotfixes for 3 days!

Nobody remembers the hotfixes that came the first day Paragon reached Cho'Gall etc, or straight after they killed council with what, 2 melees?
But here is the difference between the 10 and 25 man guilds. When something is impossible, the 25 mans find a way to make it possible, while the 10 man guilds whine on forums.

Why the changes to 10 man bosses came so slow, is because when the 10 man guilds finally reach those bosses, the race is already over, and there are less developers monitoring the bosses.



So you can not really compare current state to release state bosses in two different modes. If you want to compare something, compare the current state in which 10 man is a complete joke compared to 25 man.

In release state they were both bugged out of hell, 10 man just got fixed slower due to less players = less data.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

First of, how do you know that "10man was harder than 25man, that's why they nerfed them"? Is that something you randomly spit out just now?
No, they nerfed the 10mans because 10man guilds were simply too bad, if you disagree you can look up on the post reflecting when Ensidia killed one 10man boss and when the #1 10man guild killed it.

blizzard hitting 10man heroic modes with direct nerfs the past month aswell as blueposts saying that 10man heroics were overtuned in some parts, not that 25man had it's "issues". 25man have and allways will have more flexibility and CDs to handle "shit" mechanics like crackle or breath for nefarian/sinestra.

Now, I personally dont think that mechanics and damage etc is "harder" in 10man than it is in 25man. What 25man has going is raid CDs, tank CDs and setups that can do specific tasks. Example; putting a frost dk to kite adds in 25man is less than 8% of your dps team, in 10man it's 20% of your dps team. Another example is Breaths or big aoe abilities that brings your raid down to 20k hp or so, 10man you have maybe 1, 2 if you're lucky, cooldowns to mitigate that damage, in 25man you have 4-7cds for the same mechanic, dealing the same ammount of damage and 25man still have the same ammount of raid members per healer to heal.

I raid 10man and did 25man for 2weeks, it's not that 10man demands more per player.. 25man "forgives" more per player, what wipes you in 10man won't even tickle in 25man.

[goodolarchie]

You can not compare end game 25 to end game 10 since quite frankly, top 25 man guilds are better at playing this game.

This has to be the dumbest conclusion in the thread. You really think europeans are 30 days better than Koreans? I think what you mean is most of the TOP guilds stuck with 25 because it was easier and they had to in order to remain competitive, thus proving the point. When money talks, they (and their endorsers) don't have time for improperly tuned content.

[Deleted]

This has to be the dumbest conclusion in the thread. You really think europeans are 30 days better than Koreans? I think what you mean is most of the TOP guilds stuck with 25 because it was easier and they had to in order to remain competitive, thus proving the point. When money talks, they (and their endorsers) don't have time for improperly tuned content.

Did you even read my post? I said nothing about europeans or koreans. Its just a fact that the world 1 and 2 ten man guilds are from korea. And the World 3 25 man is european.
Now, we can not really compare 10 and 25 man guilds, straight off, however this World 3 25 man guild, killed 2 bosses on 10 man heroic. Now, this is exactly the same bosses. We can compare that with the kill date from the world 1 and world 2 10 man guilds. These ten man guilds killed EXACTLY the same boss in 10 man difficulty 30-50 days later with several more weeks of gear farming. This leads to the logical conclusion that the 25 man top guilds are simply more dedicated and plays better than the top 10 man guilds.

---------- Post added 2011-05-23 at 10:07 AM ----------

Now, when people start stating that 10 man is 'harder', lets state some facts.


Halfus Wyrmbreaker: World 1st = 10 man kill by 25 man guild
Chimaeron: World 1st = 10 man kill by 25 man guild
Atramedes: World 21st = first 10 man kill, also by a 25 man guild
Maloriak: World 5 = first 10 man kill, also by a 25 man guild
Magmaw: World 30 = first 10 man kill
Omnitron: World 1st = 10 man kill by 25 man guild
Conclave: World 18 = first 10 man kill, also by a 25 man guild
V&T: World 15 = first 10 man kill
Al'Akir: World 1st = 10 man kill

It seems like almost every 10 man first kills were made by 25 man guilds. Now checking the last bosses in the instances does not really make sense due to the 'flexible' lockout system. The 25 man guilds could easily have cleared the 10 man content, however they are 25 man guilds. Why take the easy way and do 10 man? 25 man is where the real race is.

[Deleted]

It seems like almost every 10 man first kills were made by 25 man guilds. Now checking the last bosses in the instances does not really make sense due to the 'flexible' lockout system. The 25 man guilds could easily have cleared the 10 man content, however they are 25 man guilds. Why take the easy way and do 10 man? 25 man is where the real race is.

That only seems to have come about because Ensidia decided to raid BWD on 10 man for some reason, and only got the kill a few hours or days ahead of the 25 man version. On the other hand most 10 man kills were behind the 25s by days or weeks.

[Deleted]

That only seems to have come about because Ensidia decided to raid BWD on 10 man for some reason, and only got the kill a few hours or days ahead of the 25 man version. On the other hand most 10 man kills were behind the 25s by days or weeks.

Yeah, they did not have enough players for a 25 man raid group during christmas holidays.

But wait, what what?

One 25 man guild ( currently world 3 ), played 10 man for 1 week? And they outprogressed EVERY SINGLE 10 MAN GUILD IN THE ENTIRE WORLD on 3 heroic bosses ( and faster then every 25 man guild for that matter ). Wait, what?

+ They only played 3 bosses on 10 man heroic, and all of these turned up to be World First kills?

[Deleted]

Yeah, they did not have enough players for a 25 man raid group during christmas holidays.
But wait, what what?
One 25 man guild ( currently world 3 ), played 10 man for 1 week? And they outprogressed EVERY SINGLE 10 MAN GUILD IN THE ENTIRE WORLD on 3 heroic bosses ( and faster then every 25 man guild for that matter ). Wait, what?
+ They only played 3 bosses on 10 man heroic, and all of these turned up to be World First kills?

I don't believe there were any serious 10 man guilds in contention for world firsts at the time. Not surprising since 10 mans weren't taken very seriously in Wrath. And if you'd actually gone and done Halfus and Conclave, two of those 10 man world firsts, you'd know they were considerably harder on the smaller raid size.

[Deleted]

Last week we were trying which boss would be easier for our 25 raid - Chogall HC or AlAkir HC. We decided to stick with AlAkir, so we made a 10m group for Chogall HC for last weekend. When we killed V&T 10hc we were already like wtf... this is too easy. We are always having problems on this boss in 25m mode... but 10m mode is simply a joke here. Blackout drops the raid to ~75%...
Alright, we decided to ignore councli hc and went on to Chogall. We did the classic 3heals, 2 tanks, 1 corrupted mage. We downed the boss after 9 pulls and around a minute before enrage. I simply dont know what to say, 10m is a freaking joke right now. The encounter felt so stupidly simple, I guess it could almoste be pugged...

[Mowg]

Yeah, they did not have enough players for a 25 man raid group during christmas holidays.

But wait, what what?

One 25 man guild ( currently world 3 ), played 10 man for 1 week? And they outprogressed EVERY SINGLE 10 MAN GUILD IN THE ENTIRE WORLD on 3 heroic bosses ( and faster then every 25 man guild for that matter ). Wait, what?

+ They only played 3 bosses on 10 man heroic, and all of these turned up to be World First kills?

I wouldn't use Ensidia as an example, since a few of the players that were a part of those 10-man kills did a lot of complaining; they were having great difficulty downing any of the remaining bosses in 10-man and they were locked out for 10-man Heroic progression for that week, making it impossible for them to go back to 25-man.

They made lengthy posts about how much more overtuned the fights were and how it "messed" up their rankings, with other guilds overtaking Ensidia by a large margin in that week. Now why did a Rank #3 guild get beat by a mass of guilds that week when they were clearly active in the competition? The reason was, most of the encounters were overtuned in 10-man heroic.