Shred Mangle and Ravage buff where do they end?

[Mnemon]

As it is, in 4.2, hate is already better than mastery. The better the gear gets, the worst mastery actually gets compared to haste. In current gear, if we had the 2pc and 4pc bonus, Haste would be top with mastery at the bottom. It would be nice if haste effected bleeds, but then mastery would become practically worthless. Hopefully we get some bleed love or some mastery love or it will become an ignored stat.

[Elunedra]

imo there seems tobe a false assumption that haste over takes crit at higher gear. it seems to me (and i did run mew for it) crit 7 haste come to a somewhat equal level, ofcourse we get higher agility values wich gives more crit and thus we can use more haste.

but why do you think mastery will drop down to botton ? noway mastery will stay number one unless something big chances

[Mnemon]

imo there seems tobe a false assumption that haste over takes crit at higher gear. it seems to me (and i did run mew for it) crit 7 haste come to a somewhat equal level, ofcourse we get higher agility values wich gives more crit and thus we can use more haste.

but why do you think mastery will drop down to botton ? noway mastery will stay number one unless something big chances

Go run mew 4.2. It's been ran by quite a few people and shown the same results. Haste is top, mastery is bottom. Mastery is suffering from the str nerf and haste is going up because of the shred buff. Mastery may not stay at the bottom, but it is not really close to haste. We are becoming a shred spamming class cause Blizzard is afraid to buff our bleeds for pvp.

[tangedyn]

Actually, it is currently already possible at between 359-372 for Haste to be equal to or better than Mastery with some gear configuration.

In 4.2, Haste will likely be the stat that is slightly better than the others while Mastery joins the others at around equal in value. The gap will increase even further with the 4T12 bonus.

[utopianh]

I will admit I forgot the loss of Str (direct AP) on the effect of RSVs, thanks for reminding me about that.

It's not a surprise that mastery would drop in value, since bleeds will be dropping significantly due to the AP loss, while the damage is being made back up in, on our shred. And no, it's not currently possible for mastery to be worse than haste on live, it's the loss of 1000 AP of scaling (AP scales bleeds better than everything else).

The solution from there isn't to buff haste to make it even more out of whack, blizzard wants the RSVs of stats to be very even, they just need to get the overall stat > dps value up, while lowering the overall RSV of agi.

In this case, in addition to the increase in white damage, I'd also like to see base mastery increased by 3%, and a 10-15% boost in the value of the mastery stat.

[tangedyn]

And no, it's not currently possible for mastery to be worse than haste on live,

And I suppose you know about this better than I do because you've seen more Mew reports than I have?

[Mnemon]

And no, it's not currently possible for mastery to be worse than haste on live.

Assumptions are not your friend.

[Deleted]

I don't really trust haste. It can show up as the second stat with the highest value and becomes the worst after reforging. (may be only my experience )

And about the stat values in 4.2:

My first try one 378 gear without reforges but with both t12 set bonuse. Don't know if I did something wrong.
edit: Apparently I did it without raid buffs.
edit2: No, i checked the record and I had raid buffs. The report in .txt isn't easy to read.


@utopianh: The thing is that people may don't like the idea of doing so much passiv damage. That's a rogue thing, cats want to be active.
And what part of our damage would you decrease when you increase our white damage? Bleeds or Shred?

[utopianh]

I don't really trust haste. It can show up as the second stat with the highest value and becomes the worst after reforging. (may be only my experience )

And about the stat values in 4.2:

My first try one 378 gear without reforges but with both t12 set bonuse and raidbuffs. Don't know if I did something wrong.



@utopianh: The thing is that people may don't like the idea of doing so much passiv damage. That's a rogue thing, cats want to be active.
And what part of our damage would you decrease when you increase our white damage? Bleeds or Shred?

They may not like it, but it's the -only- way to balance us for PvP & PvE, otherwise we're going to be continually held back by the former, due to high burst, or high bleeds. They simply are going to have to deal with it if they want -proper- scaling instead of retuning every tier and falling behind in high end gear levels.

As for nerfing other damage, we could get between a 4 and 6% boost in dps over the 4.2 changes before we hit the median of hybrid melee class dps for the current heroic version of 4.1 content. That gives a little wiggle room on improving white damage without requiring nerfs of other damage. If we pull more dps than that into white (which shouldn't be neccessary but is an option.) I would advocate taking it out of shred/mangle and rake. (CP generators) rather than finishers.

Also modelling is difficult and taking stock in small variations between stat values when there are larger variables (such as target swapping, multitarget bleeding, bleeds continuing during offtime on fights like magmaw and atramedes) that will weigh values off from the norm in mew. That being said your values look -extremely- suspect with such large differentiation between expertise and hit.

[Elunedra]

oke i am probely realy bad at interpatating stat values. but that shows haste as the worst stat.

but man i did not expect that a 1K AP loss out of the 16K we already got would make such a huge nerf to mastery oO.

either way the stat values in the image seem incorrect since why the hell would hit ever be worth more then expertiese ?

[tangedyn]

Guys, please read http://theincbear.com/mew-and-rsvs/ before trying to interpret RSV results.
From your 95% CI numbers, I can guess that you are only doing 10k iterations, which isn't really enough.

If you can, copy and pasting the wall-of-text from Report will allow us to see if you're doing anything obviously wrong with your setup.

[calibro]

Just bring back good old ArP and get rid of Mastery for non-casters...

[Elunedra]

so it seems http://theincbear.com/mew-and-rsvs/ has itzelf managed to come up whit a weird result, intresting it seem totaly unlogical :P

so in the haste result, haste starts to suc. in the crit result haste is better then crit. however whne you balanced it haste goes up massively. so that would mean you want to drop some crit for more haste but then haste goes down Oo \o/

[Deleted]

Guys, please read http://theincbear.com/mew-and-rsvs/ before trying to interpret RSV results.
From your 95% CI numbers, I can guess that you are only doing 10k iterations, which isn't really enough.

If you can, copy and pasting the wall-of-text from Report will allow us to see if you're doing anything obviously wrong with your setup.

I already read it and I know that the RSV results aren't perfect. But 1m iterations would take to long on my comp as it already takes almost a hour to do 100k iterations .

And even your samples show that haste is our most unstable RSV which is the main reason why I don't really trust the sentence: "In 4.2 haste will surpass mastery."

And about the interpretation of the RSV: From my understanding of your post is that tests with lower iterations can't be used as fact but they may be able to see tendencies. And my result may show that the t12p2 may increase the value from hit, exp and crit. Why?
We need refresh the ignite in time which increase hit and exp. And the dot is spell damage which means that the crit from agi is useless and crit from crit rating becomes more important. ( This is pure speculation.)


Here is the report (mostly 378 gear with raid buffs):

{BonusArmor=0, WeaponSpeed=100000, Strength=119, Talent.Survival Instincts=1, BloodInTheWaterTime=0.25, Buff.UnholyFrenzy=false, Debuff.Armor=true, Mew.Class=yawning.mew.cat.CatModelSimulation, Buff.Crit=true, Talent.Pulverize=0, Talent.Perseverance=1, Glyph of Mangle=false, Talent.Berserk=1, Target.CastInterval=0.0, Stamina=90, Talent.Heart of the Wild=3, Simulator.Rebirth=true, DodgeRating=0, Talent.Fury Swipes=3, Talent.Primal Fury=2, TalentSpec=Feral Combat, Simulator.Threads=0, Buff.DarkIntent=false, Buff.MajorHaste=true, Buff.Stamina=false, Buff.PhysicalDamageIncoming=false, Simulator.PrePotion=true, Simulator.FeralChargeTravelTime=0, Talent.Endless Carnage=2, Talent.Furor=3, Target.CastLength=0.0, Debuff.SpellVuln=false, Pivot.StatScale=0, Simulator.AssumeExternalBleed=false, Talent.Thick Hide=0, Procs.potion=80495, Glyph of Berserk=true, Buff.TricksOfTheTrade=false, Pivot.GenerateRsv=true, Glyph of Shred=true, MetaGem=Agile, Buff.APMult=true, Glyph of Lacerate=false, Debuff.SpellCrit=false, Talent.Feral Aggression=2, Race=Worgen, Talent.Predatory Strikes=2, Buff.StatMult=true, Talent.Stampede=2, HasteRating=1142, Talent.Blood in the Water=2, MasteryRating=2204, Talent.Master Shapeshifter=1, Talent.Natural Reaction=0, ExpertiseRating=326, Procs.items=68927,68994, Debuff.PhysVuln=true, Simulator.AssumeExternalFF=false, Talent.Feral Swiftness=2, Buff.AgiStr=true, Level=85, Bug.GlyphOfShredSimCraft=true, Debuff.BleedDmg=true, Simulator.Iterations=100000, Glyph of Rip=true, Simulator.Tranquility=false, Armor=0, Tier_12_4pc=true, Simulator.DurationJitter=10, Talent.Feral Charge=1, Agility=6079, Glyph of Tiger's Fury=false, Tier_12_2pc=true, Simulator.AggressiveFeralCharge=false, AttackPower=434, WeaponTop=74401, ArmorSpec=true, Simulator.HighResHz=false, Simulator.Duration=400, WeaponBottom=74399, Debuff.ShatteringThrow=false, Buff.SpellHaste=false, Tier_11_4pc=false, Class=Druid, Simulator.AssumeExternalMangle=false, Talent.Primal Madness=0, Buff.MeleeHaste=true, Glyph of Savage Roar=false, Talent.Rend and Tear=3, Talent.Leader of the Pack=1, Glyph of Feral Charge=true, HitRating=302, Tier_11_2pc=false, Pivot.ReseedPRNG=true, Talent.Infected Wounds=0, Talent.King of the Jungle=3, PvP_gloves=false, Buff.DamageMult=true, Talent.Brutal Impact=2, Buff.Armor=false, CritRating=1529}

DPS: 27981.82059 +/- 4.09452
Min/Max DPS: 25201.55592 / 30779.08202
StdDev: 660.60908
DPS (> 25%): 26935.5998
DPS (< 25%): 31120.48034
Chance Miss/Dodge (%): 9.27141
Crit % for White: 44.26215
Crit % for Yellow: 44.23941
Crit Cap % for White: 66.72859
Attack Speed: 0.78448
OoC Proc Rate (PPM): 4.04706
OoC Proc Return: 31.47969
Energy Regen (e/s): 18.82078
Number Mangles: 7.84059
Mangle Uptime (%): 99.60227
Number Shreds: 136.68923
Number Rakes: 31.08639
Rake Uptime (%): 98.85782
Number Rips: 13.85332
Rip Uptime (%): 96.37978
Number Savage Roars: 12.49203
Savage Roar Uptime (%): 96.22847
Savage Roar CP(s): 2.96928
Number Bites: 14.24676
Avg. Extra Bite Energy: 15.25632
Number Bites (> 25%) : 4.04299
Bites per Rip : 0.32602
Number Bites (< 25%) : 10.20377
Crit % for Bite: 63.69484
Number Feral Charges: 1
Number Ravages: 1.09669
Number Tiger's Furys: 12.56618
Tiger's Fury Uptime (%): 18.80231
Number Berserks: 2.95261
Berserk Uptime (%): 21.2723
Segment Time (s): 400.15049
Averaged Armor Value: 10546.63774
Armor Mitigation (%): 28.80235
White Damage (%) : 17.30458
Fury Swipes Damage (%): 3.48409
Ravage Damage (%): 0.44179
Mangle Damage (%): 1.07361
Shred Damage (%): 29.52315
Rake Damage (%): 16.13532
Rip Damage (%): 23.96718
Bite Damage (%): 4.76678
Other Damage (%): 3.30349
Avg. White Attack: 3796.53878
Avg. Ravage Attack: 47075.71649
Mangle DPE: 473.16882
Shred DPE: 653.46893
Rake DPE: 1794.05562
Rip DPE: 5218.54267
Bite DPE: 1008.57383
Hungerer (378) Uptime (%): 25.26292
Potion of the Tol'vir Uptime (%): 12.4878
Matrix Restabilizer (378) Uptime (%): 27.08606


Elapsed Time: 3289.37209366 seconds

Relative Stat Values:

Strength: 1.295779175431926 +/- 0.05803127205784783
Agility: 3.449535599070878 +/- 0.05818108731698171
Attack Power: 1.231011087285533 +/- 0.02907332089068707
Haste Rating: 1.0440879290155498 +/- 0.05796255489880845
Crit Rating: 1.2152282598178863 +/- 0.057950995055616364
Mastery Rating: 1.1597128756493111 +/- 0.05795443615009215
Hit Rating: 1.2307389897855319 +/- 0.05785091120721175
Expertise Rating: 1.2152482441086614 +/- 0.05787416878225485
Weapon DPS: 5.746335073870359 +/- 0.0585832587062482

I can also pm a few other reports (but all without raid buffs) or post the items set that I used to get the stats.


@utopianh: I sometimes forget that we are in the bulk of the lower average dps specs. And I fear that breaking out of it may result in QQ especially when we would surpass all rogue specs.

@elunedra: All my other results showed mastery as one of the best secondary stats so it may be only because this RSV's are skewed.

[Elunedra]

i find it weird that they are so hard to calculate

if i add 1 agil i gain X Ap and X crit this will make me do Y extra dmg by my attack so i gain.. Z dps out ot if right ? :P

[Mnemon]

Guys, don't stress so much over RSVs. All you really need to know is Agility>everything else. In all honesty, unless you're a perfect player, RNG and your own mistakes will make more of a dps difference than your choice of secondary stats. They are just so close together in value.

[utopianh]

Guys, don't stress so much over RSVs. All you really need to know is Agility>everything else. In all honesty, unless you're a perfect player, RNG and your own mistakes will make more of a dps difference than your choice of secondary stats. They are just so close together in value.

This is largely a discussion about buffing the class, rather than what stat to pick.

[Mnemon]

This is largely a discussion about buffing the class, rather than what stat to pick.

Except for the whole last page, your posts included, talking about RSVs?

[Elunedra]

it is alll somewhat related as those RSV do indicate a part of our problem

[Seraphk]

Hmm.. While I haven't played at all this entire expansion -- I often gander at Blizz designers' reversal of evolution in Feral Druid design.

TBC -- Introduction of poor mans scaling, WoTLK -- Improvements in poor mans scalability, plus PvP viability buffs via utility abilities... Cata -- Attempted (Failed) passive damage scalability, failed yellow damage scalability, plus PvP nerfs in mobility (the single advantage Ferals have had in PvP since Vanilla) + utility abilities.

Common sense suggests that Feral Druids needed nerfs based on bleed damage and the lack of a weakness in PvP (1v1). Sadly, bleeds were the best scaling passive damage a Feral Druid has as it increased based off AP like a Warlock's DoTs increase based off spellpower. Thus, Blizz designers nerfed the most scalable passive damage mechanic Feral Druids possess. This begs the question, how can you nerf the only scalable passive damage mechanic a class has? Furthermore, reinforce it with supporting evidence that you failed to design viable yellow damage by putting outlier, percentage value modifiers on abilities (see OP)...?

In regards to buffing passive damage (or damage in general) -- Many are on the right track; focusing on scalability rather than simple number gains. Though, its amusing to how I can predict whether you're a PvPr or PvEr, based on your suggestions. Passive damage will only be scalable if it involves increasing bleed damage (which Blizz nerfed) or completely new mechanics (which probably won't work).

If comparing other melee class weapon damage mechanics, it's easy to realize that fast hitters are dual wielders that have a lot of passive (white) damage (due to the awesome scalability of dual wield mechanics) and slow hitters are two handed weapon wielders that have a lot of burst (yellow) damage. The design problem? Blizz is making a fast hitting, non dual wielder, high burst (yellow) damage design. In the world (of Warcraft), this is simply a contradiction to every melee classes design -- It's no wonder that it doesn't work.

Fury Swipes as an attempt to balance this model by making passive damage an extra yellow attack -- A pseudo dual wield if you will. Alas, it is RNG -- The key word being RANDOM. Random is not far from a direct antonym of passive. Thus, once again, more contradictions (no wonder the Feral Druid class is just so confusing to new players). The amusing thing is that they have removed or nerfed a number of RNG talents/abilities under the suggestion: "RNG creates imbalance [in PvE and PvP]". Sheesh... If you aren't so utterly confused with the Feral Druid passive melee damage design that you aren't cross-dressing yet... I'm disappointed in you. I suggest you stay in Bear Form & spam Lacerate, tanking mechanics are so easy even a cave man can do it.

Since there is never one solution to any problem, or always more than one solution to any problem depending on your perspective -- Buffing passive damage comes down to a few ideas:

1) Fury Swipes = Dual Wield
Your auto attacks have a 100% chance to deal an attack at X% weapon damage in the form of bleed damage.

This gives effectively gives us dual wield with a single weapon. Furthmore, it makes haste more valuable as the effect of additional melee attacks would work hand-in-hand with the scalability of bleed damage from our Mastery + Mangle debuff. Depending on the %, the value of stats would change, yet work in such a way that a single stat can actually help stats which are less desirable. Though, I do seem to recall that Blizz was not in favor of "stats buffing stats".

2. Two Melee Attacks @ 2.00 Attack Speed

A true dual wield only with a slower attack speed that would make haste more beneficial. This option would make it easier to balance as you separate bleed damage from white damage and prevent haste from buffing another stat (Mastery). However, it's not very creative and is more of a homogenization of passive, white melee damage.

3. Buff Bleeds (Take 2)

This was working. However, Blizz buffed them too much -- Didn't let Resilience effect them -- And took away mobility to compensate (our greatest advantage in PvP since Vanilla). It basically makes a Druid into a melee oriented Warlock (Assassination Rogues are actually closer in comparison). I keep scratching my head at how they nerfed mobility based on the fact that our passive damage was much higher from bleeds, but then nerfed passive damage. Do they really think that position required, high damage burst abilities (which are crit reliant and greatly impacted by high resilience) are that awesome in PvP?

In conclusion, I am just using common sense in consideration of foundational passive (white) damage melee mechanics. Logistical information may prove that I'm completely wrong, however I'm merely suggesting based off a big picture. Not to mention, I haven't played this entire expansion -- I've just been playing Feral Druids since day 1 in WoW & been in love with the class despite its imperfections (that's real love). If I ever do come back, Worgen Druid is the first thing I'm getting on.