Confusion on Dungeon Guide Woes

[imoom]

if high end raiders dont want to know what the boss does before they pull, simple fix, dont read the dungeon journal. If it cost them world/realm first, well then i guess they will have to prioritize, do they want to get world first, or do they want to try and beat an encounter without any outside help, just like ALL other guild can choose to do if they want. Its not a strategy guide, its simply saying: "this dragons has a fire breath! that deals fire damage!".

It will still be a race for world first, and IF your guild decide to drop the race for the benefit of "blind pulling", well guess that makes you happy. Isnt the game about having fun, not making 5 ton of E-penis anyway?

[Chiasmus]

if high end raiders dont want to know what the boss does before they pull, simple fix, dont read. If it cost them world/realm first, well then i guess they will have to prioritize, do they want to get world first, or do they want to try and beat an encounter without any outside help, just like ALL other guild can choose to do if they want. Its not a strategy guide, its simply saying: "this dragons has a fire breath! that deals fire damage!".

It will still be a race for world first, and IF your guild decide to drop the race for the benefit of "blind pulling", well guess that makes you happy. Isnt the game about having fun, not making 5 ton of E-penis anyway?

IMG]http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9020/facepalm1.jpg[/IMG

User was infracted for this post.

[imoom]

edited: removed link to picture

And this one too.

[Fathruun]

So what exactly is the argument against just not reading the journal? If you link to a thread of 23 pages, link to a post in that thread if you are referring to a specific part. All I've read so far is that you can't stay competitive, AND not read the journal. Well, guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Magicochon]

So far it's not a guide, it's only a list of abilitie that the boss do that everybody can find on wowhead.com.
So I don't really understand why people scream about this.... The guide doesn't say what to do, it says what the boss do.

Also, this guide won't really help hardcore guild since these players already get all the info they need on internet before they ever pull...Which isn't the case of a lot of casual player that arrive and say "I don't know what the boss do".
I like this tool but... I'll already know every boss abilities and strat (on normal at least) before 4.2 comes out.
Personnally I see this more like a tool to help the vast majority of regular player, not the hardcore one.

[Deleted]

So what exactly is the argument against just not reading the journal? If you link to a thread of 23 pages, link to a post in that thread if you are referring to a specific part. All I've read so far is that you can't stay competitive, AND not read the journal. Well, guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well not anymore they cant:P
But they used to be able to, so they're a bit annoyed obviously.

[Chiasmus]

So what exactly is the argument against just not reading the journal? If you link to a thread of 23 pages, link to a post in that thread if you are referring to a specific part. All I've read so far is that you can't stay competitive, AND not read the journal. Well, guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.

OK, fair enough. The top guilds in the world partake in competitive raiding, where the most important thing once new content comes out is to secure as strong a world rank as possible. To stay competitive with other guilds, we use all the resources that others do (i.e. everything we can). That would include the Dungeon Journal in its current implementation, due to the sheer power of having the fight details described in significant depth.

Competitiveness is the main goal, but it's not the only goal. What people who haven't experienced this kind of playstyle fail to grasp is that we actually do have a lot of fun while raiding. A large degree of that enjoyment comes from using our collective intelligence to figure out how a fight actually works, and building a working strategy around that. With the Dungeon Journal's current implementation, that step in progression is totally lost and we have a working strategy before even trying the encounter.

Those who haven't raided in a top-tier guild then raise the point that the PTR also ruins this type of discovery, and in a way they're correct (I'm sure this statement will be manipulated by someone by taking it out of context). Where they're wrong is that while the PTR does diminish the feeling of discovery on live realms, it still exists on the PTR.

I'll give you a personal example of this: we were testing Lord Rhyolith a week and a bit ago, before the Dungeon Journal was implemented. We had absolutely no idea how the fight works before pulling it, but we noticed that he composed of three different mobs (like Kologarn). On our first pull, we noticed that he wasn't tankable, and that there was an extra power bar called the Direction Gauge, and we realised that something was making him turn. On our second pull, I thought that this might be related to doing damage to his feet, and it turned out to be true. From there on, we kept discovering new things about how the boss worked, such as what effects the different types of volcano in the fight had on him. It was a genuinely enjoyable experience.

Now let's take every boss we've tested post-DJ: Alysrazor, Baleroc and Shannox. Before we got to the bosses, we had a pretty good idea of what each fight entailed. There was little to no discovery element in any of these encounters, and it took maybe 2-3 pulls to see them all dead. Alysrazor is the best example of where an otherwise great encounter felt shallow and boring because we didn't have to think about how we were going to deal with the mechanics, we already knew before ever seeing the fight in person.

[Vook]

1. For high end guild (the ones that see the fights and give us the wowhead info) it kills the fun

Why? "Oh noes, I can get ability info in-game instead of wowhead? QQ THAT FUCKING SUCKS!1!" I don't get it. And last time I checked, ability info is datamined, not gotten from high-end guilds.

2. It ruins the progression race (which honestly is one thing I actually like to watch when a new tier comes out)

See #1

4. Some people dont like EVERYTHING spelled out for them before the do it.

Then don't use the dungeon journal. Is it that hard? And I don't see why one would not want info beforehand, unless you love wiping and repair bills.

5. Moderate progression guilds often have to take the time to learn interactions between abilities before the down a boss.....not it is just written out for them.

...What? I don't get it. Are you one of the people that think dungeon journal is a "How to kill X boss" guide?

[Chiasmus]

Why? "Oh noes, I can get ability info in-game instead of wowhead? QQ THAT FUCKING SUCKS!1!" I don't get it. And last time I checked, ability info is datamined, not gotten from high-end guilds.

See #1

Then don't use the dungeon journal. Is it that hard? And I don't see why one would not want info beforehand, unless you love wiping and repair bills.

...What? I don't get it. Are you one of the people that think dungeon journal is a "How to kill X boss" guide?

Feel free to read the post right above yours, then try and post constructively. If all else fails, realise these issues that the hardcore community has with the Dungeon Journal don't affect you in the slightest and that you should move on before making a bigger fool of yourself.

[Deleted]

You're clearly bothered enough to respond to all my posts on the Dungeon Journal in an irate tone, despite the fact that such discussion doesn't affect you. If they (and I would assume you as well) don't care about our concerns, then they really shouldn't be posting in a thread which has the title, Dungeon Journal and competitive raiding.



Because this point hasn't been countered over and over. I would tell you to read the thread I linked, but it would only encourage people like you to fill it with yet more drivel.



That's not the issue at all. The issue is that we don't want to know everything about a fight before it has even been attempted. Just look at an encounter like Alysrazor, which with its dizzying array of different abilities, was defeated by many guilds on their second pull because they had pre-prepared strategies for her. If the Dungeon Journal hadn't been active in that PTR build, you could safely assume that the boss would have taken far more attempts and thought process to figure out the mechanics. As for your comment about lower gear levels: the gear level will be equal for all hardcore guilds. We've had plenty of time to farm tier 11, and given the ridiculously high loot turnover, we've been fully geared for months now. What the Dungeon Journal will do is lower the amount of time we're in progression mode, leading to yet more farming.

Dude, stop taking yourself so seriously

[Vook]

Feel free to read the post right above yours, then try and post constructively. If all else fails, realise these issues that the hardcore community has with the Dungeon Journal don't affect you in the slightest and that you should move on before making a bigger fool of yourself.

So basically you're QQing that people who don't go to Wowhead/MMO forums will have access to ABILITY info (which you seem to think is a "working strategy before you even get to the raid") ? So you're mad because you wiped to learn a boss, but other people won't have to wipe as much as you did? Alrighty then. But to be clear, Dungeon Journal IS NOT "how to kill boss", "strategy", or anything. Blue post even said it, it won't tell you how to handle certain abilities or give you tips, it just gives you the ability tooltips.

I don't see any issues with it.

[Chiasmus]

So basically you're QQing that people who don't go to Wowhead/MMO forums will have access to ABILITY info (which you seem to think is a "working strategy before you even get to the raid") ? So you're mad because you wiped to learn a boss, but other people won't have to wipe as much as you did? Alrighty then. But to be clear, Dungeon Journal IS NOT "how to kill boss", "strategy", or anything. Blue post even said it, it won't tell you how to handle certain abilities or give you tips, it just gives you the ability tooltips.

I don't see any issues with it.

Do you understand the concept of an argument? How you could derive such an invalid conclusion from the premises in my post is astounding.

[Vook]

How you could derive such an invalid conclusion from the premises in my post is astounding.

So...you're saying what you posted isn't what you really mean? Please, enlighten me then, because I've read the entire post three times now, and that's what I'm getting from it, that you're QQing because you don't have to wipe tons of times to learn a boss' abilities.

[Nexxia]

You dont have to read it, its not like the bosses emote what theyre doing or anything (lol). You can mouseclick the ability they are using and see what it is. From what I can see it puts the mouseover emote abilities in a book you can look at with a rotating 3d pic and maybe some lore.

[Chiasmus]

So...you're saying what you posted isn't what you really mean? Please, enlighten me then, because I've read the entire post three times now, and that's what I'm getting from it, that you're QQing because you don't have to wipe tons of times to learn a boss' abilities.

My post was a response to someone asking why hardcore guilds simply don't use the Dungeon Journal. I gave examples to demonstrate the difference of not having the Dungeon Journal, and the effects after it was implemented. There's no 'QQ' about not having to 'wipe tons of times to learn a boss' abilities'.

You dont have to read it, its not like the bosses emote what theyre doing or anything (lol). You can mouseclick the ability they are using and see what it is. From what I can see it puts the mouseover emote abilities in a book you can look at with a rotating 3d pic and maybe some lore.

Really? I mean really? Are you even reading the current discussion? Refer to this: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post11554876

[Deleted]

So basically you're QQing that people who don't go to Wowhead/MMO forums will have access to ABILITY info (which you seem to think is a "working strategy before you even get to the raid") ? So you're mad because you wiped to learn a boss, but other people won't have to wipe as much as you did? Alrighty then. But to be clear, Dungeon Journal IS NOT "how to kill boss", "strategy", or anything. Blue post even said it, it won't tell you how to handle certain abilities or give you tips, it just gives you the ability tooltips.

In fairness the Encounter Journal does give a lot more than the abilities you can datamine. See for yourself here.
http://www.wowheadnews.com/blog=1892...nters-unveiled
There's a lot of stuff there about phase changes, targeting behaviour of mobs and abilities, and ability timings that you'd need to discover through experimentation in the past. Its not just a case of "research by reading Journal" vs "research by reading wowhead", so I wish peole would stop bringing it up.
Learning a new boss blind was a fun experience that'll be a lot harder for guilds to take part in from 4.2 onwards. Talk about the benefits all you want, but don't pretend there isn't a downside for an admittedly tiny part of the playerbase.

[Edgetroll]

I DO see the argument about taking the fun out of discovery from competative raid kills, but at the same time It feels like it's such a small part of the wow community that fits that niche that the majority of players and raiding guilds are already using previously mined abilities/tactics to help them down the content. Because Of this they favor the journal since to them it's no different than alt tabbing to wowhead. I think a good in-between would be to only have the dungeon guide active after and only after a particular boss has been downed. I feel that way you can have the world/realm firsts racing for the kills before they get released on the guide. They could even add a small footnote about which guild took it down first.

[Lucash]

The QQ comes from the super f***ing hardcore players who wants to get Realm First without DBM etc.

[Deleted]

I think a good in-between would be to only have the dungeon guide active after and only after a particular boss has been downed. I feel that way you can have the world/realm firsts racing for the kills before they get released on the guide. They could even add a small footnote about which guild took it down first.

That would actually be a really cool feature. It could be a neat way to explain why you have access to this Encounter Journal in the first place:P

[Talen]

In fairness the Encounter Journal does give a lot more than the abilities you can datamine.

And if you are on the PTR you can expect spoiliers. I expect the Live version to be different. It has already been modified to remove some of the more tactical information.

Learning a new boss blind was a fun experience that'll be a lot harder for guilds to take part in from 4.2 onwards.

No. It means you just won't read the journal. Noone is pointing a gun at your head and forcing its use. If you want to learn a new boss blind, that can still be done. You will have your fun.

The downside is not to those players who want to learn a new boss blind. Thats easily arranged.

Its to those players who want to learn a new boss blind but are part of that small number of elite guilds who strive for the World first kills and who would thus be obligated to sacrifice that aspect of the run in order to live up to their guild commitments which exist to maximise their chance of getting worlds first kill. Leaving aside those people, every other member of the WoW community is in the same "use it if you want" scenario it is today. As it is, as members of that elite, they'd be expected to follow up on any datamined info anyway, even today. Theres usually a fair amount of it floating around about boss fights even without the DJ.

EJL