Stam = how much hp as a pally tank?

[Deleted]

Its hardly a guarantee, a greater chance relative to avoidance yes, but any tank approaching the block cap is likely sacrificing a near 20k+ hp in order to reach that elusive number, and when heroics are involved (raids) in the equation then it does not bode well.

Take a look at the top tanks in the world doing Heroic content. I bet you won't find 1 pure stamina gem (Only in extreme conditions). Most tanks in heroic guilds have very low HP, but around 50% block (for warriors) and high avoidance.

You don't need high HP, you aren't a sponge, or you aren't meant to be. High hits aren't THAT high anymore and on-top of that they are mostly predictable so you can use your cooldowns on them.

I would argue that you need more HP in heroics than Raids. Raids you have a lot more buffs and control than 5 mans. 5 mans you generally take a lot of damage from some trash.

[Renerock]

Doesn't change the fact that going for mastery gives you a higher chance to take less damage which does reduce the chance to eat a huge damage spike.
Besides 20k hp don't really matter much compared to being block capped.

Mastery is good, read my first post, I am simply arguing that it is better to strike a balance between stam and mastery rather then stack one through the roof. So many tanks are still in wrath mode thinking they can stack mastery (or stam) to the sky and be a good tank. Those days are over.

---------- Post added 2011-05-23 at 05:55 PM ----------

Take a look at the top tanks in the world doing Heroic content. I bet you won't find 1 pure stamina gem (Only in extreme conditions). Most tanks in heroic guilds have very low HP, but around 50% block (for warriors) and high avoidance.

You don't need high HP, you aren't a sponge, or you aren't meant to be. High hits aren't THAT high anymore and on-top of that they are mostly predictable so you can use your cooldowns on them.

I would argue that you need more HP in heroics than Raids. Raids you have a lot more buffs and control than 5 mans. 5 mans you generally take a lot of damage from some trash.

When did I say that you should be stam stacking? Is it smart to be "block capped"? Especially since block does not work like it did in previous expansions? And shouldn't you save your cool downs for unpredictable damage spikes instead of predictable damage intake? Or for when healer mana is low? With that said, its stupid to stack ANY stat (Stam or mastery) to the sky. I will say again, gemming and enchanting has become more intelligent with this expansion, people want a clear cut answer and a pretty stat layout where they can stack one stat to the sky, it isn't happening, its time to wake up. And your right, most tanks don't have a pure stamina gem unless its a jewelers cut, at the same time, most won't have a pure mastery cut either. The truth is, there is going to be very little difference either way and won't make much difference except in extreme boss fights like Halfus or Chim.

[Nillo]

Mastery is good, read my first post

I'm not going to read that wall of text.

[Galith]

With how hard a lot of the bosses hit for on heroic it doesn't matter if you have 20k more hp. When magmaw lands full swings for upwards of 88k or so it doesn't matter if you have 20k more health than the a block capped tank, you will still die in 3 full hits. Someone who is block capped is able to take steady, predictable damage. If you are block capped you never have a situation where you take 3 full 88k hits back to back and just drop like a rock.

Wrath was a completely different game compared to now, healer mana pools are not infinite anymore and block is WAAAAAAAAAAY better than it used to be.

[Poodles]

This assertion keeps getting repeated despite being wrong. Healers are not robots. They have mana efficient heals (generally slow) and mana-inefficient heals (generally fast). More stamina extends the time your healer has to react to a spike, which can impact his choice of heals.

I'm not sure why so many people seem to miss this point, because it's a pretty obvious one. Your healer's mana-efficient heal is designed such that they can cast it almost indefinitely without going OOM. As long as the HPS generated by that heal is greater than the average incoming DTPS, that healer could keep you alive indefinitely. The only thing that prevents this is your finite health pool, which a period of increased DTPS can exhaust. Increasing that health pool makes it harder to exhaust, increasing the range during which your healer can use his mana-efficient heal, and extending time-to-OOM..

You only need enough stam to take the biggest blows and as a sink for movement of the healers. The issue is that if you stack stam in everything, the damage coming in will run the healer OOM since it's still coming in faster. Think of it as cooling, a larger heatsink will take longer to heatsoak, but unless you can remove the heat faster than it's coming in, it's still going to fail.

With the better socket bonuses in cata, you generally will be well rounded if you follow them to some extent.

This also doesn't take into account rage tanks (and on a lesser note, vengence stacks), but that's a whole other discussion.

Also, fight mechanics come into play in all this as well.

Short answer: It depends

[Malthanis]

Think of it as cooling, a larger heatsink will take longer to heatsoak, but unless you can remove the heat faster than it's coming in, it's still going to fail.

This is quite possibly the best analogy I've seen for tanking as of now. Thank you for this.

[Renerock]

You all seem to be taking tidbits of what I am saying and then formulating a conclusion from it. Read my entire post, I am simply offering a defense to stamina in a world where people want everything to be pretty and one stat dominates all. I am NOT SAYING that Stam is better then mastery, simply that there needs to be a BALANCE. I agree with all your points, but read my entire post first.

Stacking either one of those stats over the other is just stupid. The blind mastery stackers are just as stupid as the blind Stamina stackers.

Truth is, one is going to be slightly better then the other in certain situations and certain boss fights, and carrying two equipment sets that mold into what content you are currently attacking is not very practical at this point, the best you can do is have a balanced itemization that can provide a good defense against all aspects of damage fluctuation.

And anyone not familiar with Theck's theory-crafting needs to go take a look, hes the math-wiz behind all this crap. Any paladin tank or anyone trying to comment on this subject first needs to delve deeper into the topic and look into the numbers to first create a conclusion, rather then spewing opinionated assumptions.

Maintankadin.failsafedesign.com

[Deleted]

Mastery is good, read my first post, I am simply arguing that it is better to strike a balance between stam and mastery rather then stack one through the roof. So many tanks are still in wrath mode thinking they can stack mastery (or stam) to the sky and be a good tank. Those days are over.

---------- Post added 2011-05-23 at 05:55 PM ----------



When did I say that you should be stam stacking? Is it smart to be "block capped"? Especially since block does not work like it did in previous expansions? And shouldn't you save your cool downs for unpredictable damage spikes instead of predictable damage intake? Or for when healer mana is low? With that said, its stupid to stack ANY stat (Stam or mastery) to the sky. I will say again, gemming and enchanting has become more intelligent with this expansion, people want a clear cut answer and a pretty stat layout where they can stack one stat to the sky, it isn't happening, its time to wake up. And your right, most tanks don't have a pure stamina gem unless its a jewelers cut, at the same time, most won't have a pure mastery cut either. The truth is, there is going to be very little difference either way and won't make much difference except in extreme boss fights like Halfus or Chim.

Well not to just disagree with you (I'm on your side) but from what I have seen the top guys are using Mastery JC gems (where possible) and blue if its not possible to use 3 of them.
And as far as block capping goes - for warriors its going to be almost impossible to mastery cap - as your mastery roles over into Critical Block after block cap (With shield block). So I don't think we will stop stacking mastery until Shield block just gives you +25% to critical block.

[Kisko]

Why argue? Just learn from the best ... Lazeil <Paragon> have 3.2k mastery and 166k unbuffed.

That's a good balance to strive for in my opinion.

His gemming/enchants favor mastery with some hybrid gems and his gear choices are clearly driven by mastery.

[Renerock]

Why argue? Just learn from the best ... Lazeil<Paragon> have 3.2k mastery and 166k unbuffed.

That's a good balance to strive for in my opinion.

His gemming/enchants favor mastery with some hybrid gems and his gear choices are clearly driven by mastery.

That is great balance, but it comes with heroic gear, which is not accessible to most, but it is a goal. If you have kept track of Lazeil's progress, Lazeil's gear choice switched as Paragon progressed through the content and Lazeil gathered enough gear to have that great balance. Look at Theck on Blackrock, or on your server, Kiithis. All three are in heroic content, all three are successful, it just goes to show that the gear strategies for Paladin tanks can vary largely but the output can be successful regardless. Ultimately the difference between 10k hp and 5% block is not going to be very noticeable to your healers and will most likely not be a reason for any wipe or kill for that matter.

[Supafly87]

lol thanks for the replies guys but yea went way off topic lol

[Deleted]

That is great balance, but it comes with heroic gear, which is not accessible to most, but it is a goal. If you have kept track of Lazeil's progress, Lazeil's gear choice switched as Paragon progressed through the content and Lazeil gathered enough gear to have that great balance. Look at Theck on Blackrock, or on your server, Kiithis. All three are in heroic content, all three are successful, it just goes to show that the gear strategies for Paladin tanks can vary largely but the output can be successful regardless. Ultimately the difference between 10k hp and 5% block is not going to be very noticeable to your healers and will most likely not be a reason for any wipe or kill for that matter.

Stamina is more preferable when your are in a guild doing bosses no one else has, that almost certainly explains it.

[angelx7x]

Now? Im pretty sure they have had that since day 1 lol. As for stamina i'm not sure if you are trying to stack stam judging by your question but this isnt WotLK anymore, and stam stacking isnt necessary, Mastery is what you should be maxing out first especially as a prot paladin, then having your Dodge, Parry around the same percent so that DR isnt effected/issued, and lastly stamina. I would only put stam gems in my items if you're using a jewlers gem (101 stam) or in your relic since there is no socket bonus.

priests had stam buff, but warriors and locks had health buff, not stam

---------- Post added 2011-05-23 at 04:48 PM ----------

is it?
2 hits come at you one you take 100% and one you take 0% 100% total
2 hits come at you one you take 60% and one you take 60% 120% total

small data pools are a bad way to convey information like this, plus, taking 60% of a hit each time is predicatable, which is better

[announced]

pallys need to stack mastery and balance stam around dodge/parry . so we dont spike up and down like dks. we have no constant self heals for 40k+ anymore so we need to take consistent dmg.

[Kisko]

That is great balance, but it comes with heroic gear, which is not accessible to most, but it is a goal. If you have kept track of Lazeil's progress, Lazeil's gear choice switched as Paragon progressed through the content and Lazeil gathered enough gear to have that great balance. Look at Theck on Blackrock, or on your server, Kiithis. All three are in heroic content, all three are successful, it just goes to show that the gear strategies for Paladin tanks can vary largely but the output can be successful regardless. Ultimately the difference between 10k hp and 5% block is not going to be very noticeable to your healers and will most likely not be a reason for any wipe or kill for that matter.

All three? Funny. I don't think you realize the distance between players who going to the summer trying to kill boss #10 and people who were done with the content 4 months ago. It's a world of difference.

It's also not about gear, which obviously lazeil gathered bit by bit, it's about attitude. It takes attitude to say "Yes, I'm the best tank in the world, I have access to every piece of heroic gear, I have less stamina than scrub 9/13 tanks and I DO NOT CARE."

The hidden love for stamina is injected deep into the brain of every tank. I know that feeling very well. Yes, they know it's useless now, they know healers react on percentage on grid, they know they are wasting mana that way, but they keep putting big blue gems to their gear, equipping stamina trinkets, etc, etc. They just can't let it go.