A tree falls in a forest...

[Sym]

It's quite possible to imagine in fact. You just have to stop thinking you're of any fucking significance and in fact, you're just one big coincidence, a grain of sand in the vast universe. Light will exist without your opinion about it or perception of it, because it doesn't give a fuck. The world won't end with your death.

Heh, I had a science teacher in school like this. Explained quantum physics using that kind of talk. It was so damn fun.

[Neichus]

Also, I'm pretty sure if no one is looking at a certain object it doesn't just disappear then reappear when someone does look at it, so yes everything still exists if no one is there to perceive it. The world goes on even without humans and life. It's quite simple really.

Yes, but the point here is what do you mean by exist? That is to say we observe qualities in objects. These qualities appear to interact. Why we perceive things the way we do appears to have some connection to how they "are." But what "are" they?

Perhaps an analogy will work better. You're staring at a computer screen right now. You could open up another folder over this window. Now, is the code for that new folder "on top of" the code for your internet browser? Well, no, that's a silly question. Code isn't "on top of" other code. But it still has very real consequences. Your vision of the browser is still obscured. Clicking in that window will do different things that clicking outside the window. But really, the window doesn't "exist" in the sense that it physically occludes vision; it's merely a simulation of that effect.

So the question is: what are things really like? Can you say they're like anything? I'm not suggesting the world isn't "real," but I am suggesting to some extent that it is all in our heads. It's like the Zen story about two acolytes arguing over a flag in the wind; one says it is the wind that moves, the other says that it is the flag that moves. When their master comes along and they beseech him for an answer he tells them they're both wrong, it is their mind that moves (this story is mimicked in The Matrix with the spoon discussion).

This is ultimately where our language breaks down, and forgive me OP if I'm taking this in a different direction than you intended, but that's how I understood the original inquiry. What what is a "thing" and how does it "exist" are questions you'll find are harder to answer than you first give them credit for.

Edit: one more quote for the money. "These days, every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he knows what a photon is, but he is wrong."

[Noomz]

Another 'quite interesting' thing to point out is what is a movie? to us, we perceive a movie as an ongoing 'moving picture', of course we know that it is a series of images being streamed so fast we see them as moving, but if a pigeon were to watch the same movie, it would see nothing but a slide show. so there are greatly varying degrees of senses.

Yeah I remember that part too. Movies are 25 frames per second, anything that is missing our own brains fill in.
QI has some really brilliant stuff in it, everyone should watch it! Science, history and facts, with great humor!
I actually liked the episode with Daniel Radcliffe, he was surprisingly bright.

Preception, is in the eye of the beholder! And preception is subjective.

---------- Post added 2011-06-01 at 02:50 AM ----------

It's quite possible to imagine in fact. You just have to stop thinking you're of any fucking significance and in fact, you're just one big coincidence, a grain of sand in the vast universe. Light will exist without your opinion about it or perception of it, because it doesn't give a fuck. The world won't end with your death.

I think he's much more interested in perception and human senses, and some profound ideas about it.

Man I wish we had a lot more threads like this on mmo-champ instead of all the whine, politics and religion! This is so much more fun 'and' educational!

[Yosef1015]

Quantum physics disagree!
There's always a chance for something to happen, always. Even though it might be almost non-excistant.

Break down all the trees in the world I guarantee they will all make sounds, throw every single glass bottle to the concrete ground I guarantee it will never bounce up into your hands.

[Noomz]

Break down all the trees in the world I guarantee they will all make sounds, throw every single glass bottle to the concrete ground I guarantee it will never bounce up into your hands.

Chance doesn not equal probability, as funny a that might sound I think it's true.
You have to take into consideration many more factors then simple repetition of something in the infinite until a chance event occurs.

It depends on what tree it is, where it is, the circuimstances of it falling etc.
It also depends on what type of glass it is, who throws it, how the person throws it, how it lands etc.

Chances are, it will happen

[Vook]

But what is air? or vibrations? We know what it "looks" like, feels like, etc. but if humans never existed to percieve it what would it be?

Humans aren't the only organisms on the planet.

there's a shocker for ya

[Sobedesce]

It's quite possible to imagine in fact. You just have to stop thinking you're of any fucking significance and in fact, you're just one big coincidence, a grain of sand in the vast universe. Light will exist without your opinion about it or perception of it, because it doesn't give a fuck. The world won't end with your death.

I first tought about this when I stoped to think at how i see the world and other humans. While everyone has a "1st person" perspective he's the only one to have this perspective about himself, everyone else sees him in a "3rd person" perspective, so while my point of view to the world was seeing trough my eyes everyon else point of view to me was from "the outside". I'm not really sure how to express this, or if my words even make any sense but the first time i though about this i was down for one whole week.

[Azgraal]

I first tought about this when I stoped to think at how i see the world and other humans. While everyone has a "1st person" perspective he's the only one to have this perspective about himself, everyone else sees him in a "3rd person" perspective, so while my point of view to the world was seeing trough my eyes everyon else point of view to me was from "the outside". I'm not really sure how to express this, or if my words even make any sense but the first time i though about this i was down for one whole week.

I have one solution to you kind poster: Eye of Kilrogg.

[Badpaladin]

I think it is just common sense that a tree falling in a forest will 100% of the time make some sort of sound and that no glass bottle on the planet will hit concrete without a scratch and defy the laws of gravity and bounce into your hand.

Defy the laws of gravity? It's not defying anything by doing that. I don't think you understand what I am talking about. There is absolutely nothing in our laws of physics that states such things cannot and will not happen. That is an undeniable fact. However, it doesn't say anything about the probability of such a thing happening. Such a probability is inconceivably low, yes, but how do you know that something happens the way you think it should? You have aboslutely no idea. You can only guess, and chances are that guess is right.

Also, I'm pretty sure if no one is looking at a certain object it doesn't just disappear then reappear when someone does look at it, so yes everything still exists if no one is there to perceive it. The world goes on even without humans and life. It's quite simple really.

You have no way of knowing that. Who's to say you're not just some construct of my mind, and when I cease to exist you go along with me? I have no idea, and neither do you. Again, it's about probability. We can only conceieve of things with our sensory perception, and when we are incapable of doing so (and without machinery), we have no guarantee about what is and what isn't.

[Noomz]

I first tought about this when I stoped to think at how i see the world and other humans. While everyone has a "1st person" perspective he's the only one to have this perspective about himself, everyone else sees him in a "3rd person" perspective, so while my point of view to the world was seeing trough my eyes everyon else point of view to me was from "the outside". I'm not really sure how to express this, or if my words even make any sense but the first time i though about this i was down for one whole week.

Your perception of the world is yours alone, shared with no other.
But that doesn't mean it isn't very similar or almost identical to someone elses perception. Differences might be big, and differences might be almost non-excistant.

[Jhaalu]

It's quite possible to imagine in fact. You just have to stop thinking you're of any fucking significance and in fact, you're just one big coincidence, a grain of sand in the vast universe. Light will exist without your opinion about it or perception of it, because it doesn't give a fuck. The world won't end with your death.

For the last time. I'm not suggesting that the universe would cease to exist or even change at all if humans didnt exist to percieve it. I'm saying that we percieve things with our senses, but what is it that we are percieving? Light, yes. But what is light? Try to imagine light without any of your senses.

(This is a hard question to put to words, sorry)

[Deleted]

Animals would hear it. Animals has ears :d

[Noomz]

Defy the laws of gravity? It's not defying anything by doing that. I don't think you understand what I am talking about. There is absolutely nothing in our laws of physics that states such things cannot and will not happen. That is an undeniable fact. However, it doesn't say anything about the probability of such a thing happening. Such a probability is inconceivably low, yes, but how do you know that something happens the way you think it should? You have aboslutely no idea. You can only guess, and chances are that guess is right.



You have no way of knowing that. Who's to say you're not just some construct of my mind, and when I cease to exist you go along with me? I have no idea, and neither do you. Again, it's about probability. We can only conceieve of things with our sensory perception, and when we are incapable of doing so (and without machinery), we have no guarantee about what is and what isn't.

Quaaantuuum!

---------- Post added 2011-06-01 at 03:00 AM ----------

For the last time. I'm not suggesting that the universe would cease to exist or even change at all if humans didnt exist to percieve it. I'm saying that we percieve things with our senses, but what is it that we are percieving? Light, yes. But what is light? Try to imagine light without any of your senses.

(This is a hard question to put to words, sorry)

I've sort of answered that dilemma for you a few posts back.

[Azgraal]

Also, I'm pretty sure if no one is looking at a certain object it doesn't just disappear then reappear when someone does look at it, so yes everything still exists if no one is there to perceive it. The world goes on even without humans and life. It's quite simple really.

That reminded me of this episode of Dr. Who. ^^

[Sobedesce]

Your perception of the world is yours alone, shared with no other.
But that doesn't mean it isn't very similar or almost identical to someone elses perception. Differences might be big, and differences might be almost non-excistant.

and there's always the "how can we know if what's blue (the color) to me isn't percieved as something else by another person" color queston.
that shit almost blew my mind a few year back

I have one solution to you kind poster: Eye of Kilrogg.

I was but 10 or so when that happened and had not mastered the art of the eye of kilrogg

[Jhaalu]

I've sort of answered that dilemma for you a few posts back.

I'm not looking for an actual answer. You said it was impossible to percieve, which i had already said in the first post. This is just something that has been boggling my mind the past few days and wanted to bring up; Trying to perceiving something without perception

[Neichus]

For the last time. I'm not suggesting that the universe would cease to exist or even change at all if humans didnt exist to percieve it. I'm saying that we percieve things with our senses, but what is it that we are percieving? Light, yes. But what is light? Try to imagine light without any of your senses.

(This is a hard question to put to words, sorry)

May I inquire if I'm even addressing your question? I feel as though I'm sort of responding to the wind here with no feedback, although the way you keep asking the question I feel like I have a very good idea of what you're asking: "We perceive the world. The world exists without our perception, yet our perception is what makes up this world for us. Therefore, what is the world like if not perceived?" This appears to be the kernel of your question, no?

[Rec]

Sound is a sensation, so if no one is there to hear it, there is no sound.

[Iron Dome]

Yes it would, because those vibrations in the air may be a sound to another living thing. IF ABSOLUTELY NOTHING was in the forest, it wouldn't matter. But due to the level of biodiversity in a forest, this is impossible.
And yes, your chair will always be there. Perhaps the color is different than what your eyes see, but does that matter? If everyone's eyes see the same color, then that's good. But it's always there.

[Jhaalu]

May I inquire if I'm even addressing your question? I feel as though I'm sort of responding to the wind here with no feedback, although the way you keep asking the question I feel like I have a very good idea of what you're asking: "We perceive the world. The world exists without our perception, yet our perception is what makes up this world for us. Therefore, what is the world like if not perceived?" This appears to be the kernel of your question, no?

Yes, that is a much better way of wording it. Thank you.

And sorry if it seemed like i was ignoring you lol. When you quoted someone else i assumed you were just talking to them about something else. You actually seem to have the best grasp on what i'm trying to say. I edited the OP to include a quote from you.