The League of Legends thread

[Martinussen]

Enough support talk, why is hecarim taken down? what bug?

[gamhacked]

Sets are cool, no more Enigma Item Changer for me. Shame they replaced the Achievements tab, though,

[Deleted]

It's easy to misunderstand what I mean and think I undervalue the support role. Yet, the only way for a Janna to be scarier than a Vayne and in any reasonable circumstance and warrant being a primary target would be if she itemized differently, which would essentially mean she'd have to earn more than Vayne, which defeats the purpose of "supporting your carry" anyway. If you had used 'annoying' instead of 'scary' I'd be more likely to agree with you.

You do know that not every ad carry knows how to play properly and hence isn't a carry, in these kind of cases, it's possible for a support to carry the game instead or to be considered a priority target. If someone is annoying, in a game where they play good, annoying can be a synonym of scary and vise versa.

The whole idea behind the support role, I feel, is:

Pick a character who has supportive abilities (shields, heals, CC):
- These abilities usually have good base values (as ability scaling will likely be poor due to support itemization)
- CC scales by itself because it is duration-, not damage-based - CC is amazing if you have damage with which to back it up (namely your carry), but is useless if there's nobody to follow it up (i.e. if you're alone)
- Invest in gold generation so as to allow your team to become richer, while you provide sight and defensive/offensive augmentations for them

These are all very important things, but do you see how they are a foundation on which your teammates have to build? You load the gun, your carries fire it.

I agree with that definition of what a support is or should be in a champion. Even though the last part is usually true, a carry can't carry without support(jungler, support role, tank, etc.), so a support can carry a game by carrying the adc or another teammate. It's not impossible for a support to carry a game.

The problem here is that every post you make is to say that a carry is only those that can do damage and that is not true if that isn't true, why not just agree with what I said previously about supports being able to carry, even if the chances of that happening are slim?

Remember the term 'support jungler' from season 2 (Nautilus, Maokai, Amumu) reserved for junglers who excelled in good base (magic) damage and CC, but who built primarily as tanks? Their use was absorbing damage and setting up plays, but they were never priority targets.

That is called being a tank and not a support. A support's job isn't to go in and take damage, its job is to support.

No, I'm not undervaluing it, as I have assured you several times. You're misusing the term for it - you're calling apples vegetables by saying displacing the enemy team is carrying. Displace all you want, that 10-1 Ezreal isn't going to kill himself.

Displacing the enemy team allows you to push a lane and be able to destroy a tower.

You win a game by destroying towers, the inhibs and then the nexus, not by killing players, so yes, a good displacement can make you win a game and a teamfight too.


You now said what I wanted to "hear" about a support being able to carry so I guess there's no point in carrying that part of the argument.

That pun was actually not intended. Lol.

[gamhacked]

You do know that not every ad carry knows how to play properly and hence isn't a carry, in these kind of cases, it's possible for a support to carry the game instead or to be considered a priority target. If someone is annoying, in a game where they play good, annoying can be a synonym of scary and vise versa.

I agree with that definition of what a support is or should be in a champion. Even though the last part is usually true, a carry can't carry without support(jungler, support role, tank, etc.), so a support can carry a game by carrying the adc or another teammate. It's not impossible for a support to carry a game.

That's my point, and I have stated it previously - of course a carry needs their support, but carrying is not about playing better - it's about being most responsible for victory. It's not always one player that carries. It's just that some roles are more able to carry than others, by design, hence why they are targeted first and why they have 'carry' in their role names.

The problem here is that every post you make is to say that a carry is only those that can do damage and that is not true if that isn't true, why not just agree with what I said previously about supports being able to carry, even if the chances of that happening are slim?

Again, damage is the mechanism most frequently used to carry, but is not the only one.

That is called being a tank and not a support. A support's job isn't to go in and take damage, its job is to support.

I look at each character as having two traits - offense (carrying) and defense (support). If you're helping or protecting your team, you're supporting, if you're killing the enemy, you're carrying. What is a carry?

Displacing the enemy team allows you to push a lane and be able to destroy a tower.

You win a game by destroying towers, the inhibs and then the nexus, not by killing players, so yes, a good displacement can make you win a game and a teamfight too.

Generally, the only way to destroy towers is to kill or weaken your enemies so they don't prevent you from doing so. I'd love to see a 0-0 game in which a Nexus was destroyed.


Look, carrying doesn't mean you're better than someone else. Not everyone is meant to carry. It's just a confusing term people want to use to promote themselves or their role without knowing its meaning.

[Deleted]

No, I'm not undervaluing it, as I have assured you several times. You're misusing the term for it - you're calling apples vegetables by saying displacing the enemy team is carrying. Displace all you want, that 10-1 Ezreal isn't going to kill himself.

One more time: I'm not saying damage characters are all that can carry. I'm saying the person who has the greatest impact on victory, plain and simple, is the primary 'carry'. As it was elegantly put by someone else earlier, the person the enemy team wants dead the most is that alpha carry.

You're aware it's a teamgame right? Carries get focussed because indeed they have the biggest damage impact, thus winning the fight, thus essentially winning the game. But a carry can't do this on his own, he needs a team to help him accomplish this or be useless. In most cases this is the supports job. I have had countless of games where the only reason my carries could do what they are supposed to do is because I (as the support) disrupt their carries, peel for my carries, CC their bruisers, flash into that Caitlyn ulti so it didn't kill my carry etc.

In my opinion, that's having a massive impact on any teamfight, it's just subtle since you don't see gigantic numbers popping up and healthbars vanishing in mere seconds, but the impact is certainly there. By your definition, that's carrying.

[gamhacked]

You're aware it's a teamgame right? Carries get focussed because indeed they have the biggest damage impact, thus winning the fight, thus essentially winning the game. But a carry can't do this on his own, he needs a team to help him accomplish this or be useless. In most cases this is the supports job. I have had countless of games where the only reason my carries could do what they are supposed to do is because I (as the support) disrupt their carries, peel for my carries, CC their bruisers, flash into that Caitlyn ulti so it didn't kill my carry etc.

Yes, of course a player is nothing without their team, and every player plays their role for a reason, and in any individual game, any one player can be the carry, depending on their impact on the game.

In my opinion, that's having a massive impact on any teamfight, it's just subtle since you don't see gigantic numbers popping up and healthbars vanishing in mere seconds, but the impact is certainly there. By your definition, that's carrying.

I'm glad you used the word subtle, because after all this discussion the best way I now have to describe a support is a subtle carry if they perform their role well. Anyway these are loose definitions and vary from game to game, and it's healthier and better to look at the synergy of a team as a whole rather than that of each individual.

[Deleted]

Yes, of course a player is nothing without their team, and every player plays their role for a reason, and in any individual game, any one player can be the carry, depending on their impact on the game.



I'm glad you used the word subtle, because after all this discussion the best way I now have to describe a support is a subtle carry if they perform their role well. Anyway these are loose definitions and vary from game to game, and it's healthier and better to look at the synergy of a team as a whole rather than that of each individual.

Whether or not it's subtle, it's as important of an asset as what your carry does. That people tend to not see it is their own problem quite sadly.

[gamhacked]

Whether or not it's subtle, it's as important of an asset as what your carry does. That people tend to not see it is their own problem quite sadly.

Honestly, I think that's something supports say to feel better about themselves through the role they play. As long as they do their best, they, as a player, are worth no less than their teammates, but in my opinion, a carry tends to be more important.

Which would you rather have, your support or carry permanently DCing at level 1?

The sad fact is, supports don't scale (much) at all.

[Firebert]

WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME MAJAD, BRITTANY SN0W, SIVALION, RAMPANT RABBBIT, AND SO MANY OTHERS!!!!!!

I'll love you. Just live on the outside like me. :3

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:04 PM ----------

I hate Cristiano Ronaldo. The dude is like so ugly and annoying. Haha.

Nani's more ugly. :3

[Deleted]

@Gamhacked The term carry has nothing to do about dealing damage. It has something to do with absorbing the majority of your team's gold so that you're able to secure objectives and win team fights later into the game. If a support Zyra, Fiddlesticks, or Lux or a jungle Kha'zix, Zac or Hecarim gets 8 kills within 15 minutes of the game, they have effectively become the carries of the game despite not starting in the role as a carry.
For example if that fed Hecarim everyone hates goes into a 3v1 engagement so that his team can take two turrets and one inhibtor it effectively makes Hecarim the carry. Sure, he's not dealing the most damage or winning those flashy team fights for you, but he's taken most of your team's gold and is winning the game for you, therefore effectively making him your carry of the game.

[Firebert]

Hecarim is currently disabled due to a bug where if he charges jungle minions and ends his charge in a wall, he cannot move and must either ult, Flash or Recall to escape. There've been reports of this also happening to Vayne and Quinn: basically, anyone with a charge can end up getting stuck in a wall.

Beware in Ranked.

[Farolok]

Don't forget the vent thread. :P

Delete post or something (copy it first), post there.

It's not a rant! This was actually me incredibly happy haha.

[satletio]

As support D1 player I truly believe a support role can carry games - except warding and denying enemy vision with pinks (good support wards different bushes depending on enemy setup - especially jungler). During the lane phase your job is to make sure ad carry isn't getting zoned or/and try to zone out enemy ad by either poking or hard engaging (depends on the champion). If you managed to do it team fights will soon begin and this is where a good support can shine and eventually "carry" the game!

You can either do it by doing great engages which will cc at least one or more squishy dmg dealer - then ur team follows up and kill him or at least force flashes which most of the time lets you push at least 1 tower (mostly leona/bc/thresh/ali, to lesser extend sona/lulu/taric/nami/zyra)
Another way is to disengage enemy team fight by using cc ability - that way you saved your ad/ap and enemy team can't push tower/baron/dragon or apply pressure(janna/zyra best to lesser extend ali/sona/lulu/nami)
And finally when team fights begins you usually peel ad or ap carry by using skills/cc/exhaust. If you got good engage and advantage you should go for enemy carry to make sure he is dead. A good support will also drop pink ward immediately vs enemy khazix/rengar/akali/vayne/twich/eve and few other champs so they wont assassinate your team!

Even at LCS you can easily see gamechanging crescendos, in solo q 1 good engage/disengage can easily win fight. Flash pulverize/crescendo/cage/monsoon simply win the game!
I had many games when I carried game as Janna ulting/exhausting enemy khazix so he didn't kill my cait and got a reset which would ace our team. I also split enemy team with monsoon we we got 2 easy kills so the rest of them had to run away. As Leona I carried with 1/10/15 a couple of times immediately by ulting enemy farmed Vayne and going balls on him - i always died but so did he. The point is he was 70% of enemy team damage so despite my crappy score I carried my team by trading high priority target for me which gave us victory. Pretty much every support can carry by applying pressure in form of hard cc or making sure your ad carry can actually "carry" and ace enemy by peeling/kiting/disengaging for him. You just have to understand the power of support is not the actual damage - It's the power of crowd control/auras/vision he provides. And yes at bronze/silver/gold It is harder to do because teammates often don't react! I started to enjoy support after i reached platinum. My team could simply see the difference I made! So GL to you all and go carry hard even as support!

[Deleted]

Honestly, I think that's something supports say to feel better about themselves through the role they play. As long as they do their best, they, as a player, are worth no less than their teammates, but in my opinion, a carry tends to be more important.

Which would you rather have, your support or carry permanently DCing at level 1?

The sad fact is, supports don't scale (much) at all.

I never said they mean more either, it's a teamgame with different roles that 'need' to be filled. Otherwise you would simply see 5 carries. DC's have nothing to do with it, a DC'ed lvl 1 jungler can lose you the game too, does that make him more important then a botlane carry? No, the game is made around 5 people, not 5 people vs 4 people.

The fact that supports "don't scale" is actually a good thing (and a simple but effective intended design). They don't need to scale well because they are far less gold dependent then carries, have cheap but extremely beneficial TEAM items. Their skills simple do not need to scale (with AP or AD that is), they give a massive benefit by just ranking them accordingly. Janna's shield comes to mind, sure end-game the actual shield is nearly useless but the free B.F. Sword isn't. Her Q doesn't damage but it breaks up fights. Hell even her ulti doesn't heal for a lot, yet it's one of those spells that can completely turn around games.

As I said, their job through the entire game is extremely important, just like every other role. It's purely a psychological problem that it's a very unrewarding role to play because of how people don't notice it (though a good carry and a good support will complement each other). Again, if people talk low about good supports it's their own stupidity really, because in the end you can be sure your support had a good role in making you win the game.

[Deleted]

You know I hate ARAM sometimes because I lose a lot in it.

I love ARAM because you have no derps going: MID MID MID OR FEED and the fact that instalocking is no problem, it's just good old teamfights, I almost exclusively play ARAM at this moment.

Also it's moderately enjoyable that I sometimes get champions which I have never or barely played, allowing me to learn them.(except Soraka, booooring)


EDIT: See? I just found out I immensly enjoy playing Caitlyn. Going to buy her now.

[Duronos]

Carrying applies to anyone, the amount of times I've been told that I carried as Blitzcrank is somewhat common (sometimes I just suck). Supports do carry and especially the higher you get in ELO the more they can carry. I'm sorry mate but you don't know what you are talking about, learn the facts at least and make a somewhat decent counter argument because this is something that is relatively black and white answer wise.

Please don't quote me and be all butthurt. I've had that happen too many times.

[Deleted]

Carrying applies to anyone, the amount of times I've been told that I carried as Blitzcrank is somewhat common (sometimes I just suck). Supports do carry and especially the higher you get in ELO the more they can carry. I'm sorry mate but you don't know what you are talking about, learn the facts at least and make a somewhat decent counter argument because this is something that is relatively black and white answer wise.

Please don't quote me and be all butthurt. I've had that happen too many times.

I didn't read what the person you are answering to said but yes, supports can carry with their excellent cc and life saving heals/shields/buffs.

[Deleted]

I didn't read what the person you are answering to said but yes, supports can carry with their excellent cc and life saving heals/shields/buffs.

Don't forget zoning, I've seen some supports do that incredibly well.

Also:

EDIT: See? I just found out I immensly enjoy playing Caitlyn. Going to buy her now.

I used to dislike Corki, every time I thought about possible ADCs, I immediately excluded him from my selection. Now, after getting him in ARAM, he is actually quite high on my list of possible new ADCs. Simply because I enjoyed his kit.
I also heard that playing him is way better if you build Spirit of the Elder Lizard, like in the blue Ezreal build, maybe we will see him in more games again.

[gamhacked]

I never said they mean more either, it's a teamgame with different roles that 'need' to be filled. Otherwise you would simply see 5 carries. DC's have nothing to do with it, a DC'ed lvl 1 jungler can lose you the game too, does that make him more important then a botlane carry? No, the game is made around 5 people, not 5 people vs 4 people.

The fact that supports "don't scale" is actually a good thing (and a simple but effective intended design). They don't need to scale well because they are far less gold dependent then carries, have cheap but extremely beneficial TEAM items. Their skills simple do not need to scale (with AP or AD that is), they give a massive benefit by just ranking them accordingly. Janna's shield comes to mind, sure end-game the actual shield is nearly useless but the free B.F. Sword isn't. Her Q doesn't damage but it breaks up fights. Hell even her ulti doesn't heal for a lot, yet it's one of those spells that can completely turn around games.

As I said, their job through the entire game is extremely important, just like every other role. It's purely a psychological problem that it's a very unrewarding role to play because of how people don't notice it (though a good carry and a good support will complement each other). Again, if people talk low about good supports it's their own stupidity really, because in the end you can be sure your support had a good role in making you win the game.

There's a reason it's a less rewarding role and most people have to learn to like it: you don't get to kill anything in a game where killing and destruction are the objective. Of course you feel you're not a direct help because you aren't, and that's the point, you help your team kill the enemy, you assist, you support - you don't do it yourself. The primary objective of the game is not to CC the enemy or to shield your Graves, it's very simple: to destroy the enemy base. Once again, because I know you will, do not think I do not value the role of support, I merely give it slightly less weight than that of the carries.

@Gamhacked The term carry has nothing to do about dealing damage. It has something to do with absorbing the majority of your team's gold so that you're able to secure objectives and win team fights later into the game. If a support Zyra, Fiddlesticks, or Lux or a jungle Kha'zix, Zac or Hecarim gets 8 kills within 15 minutes of the game, they have effectively become the carries of the game despite not starting in the role as a carry.
For example if that fed Hecarim everyone hates goes into a 3v1 engagement so that his team can take two turrets and one inhibtor it effectively makes Hecarim the carry. Sure, he's not dealing the most damage or winning those flashy team fights for you, but he's taken most of your team's gold and is winning the game for you, therefore effectively making him your carry of the game.

But you're bringing a jungler into this - we were talking about the dichotomy between carries and supports. Hecarim is a (by and large) carry jungler, especially if he snowballs. He can deal very good damage, and has no trouble farming. The reason mid and AD are generally referred to as carries is because they are generally the champions you want to have items because they are generally the strongest on your teams with them. Supports are meant to let their carry get the kill because without items, your carry cannot carry.

Carrying applies to anyone, the amount of times I've been told that I carried as Blitzcrank is somewhat common (sometimes I just suck). Supports do carry and especially the higher you get in ELO the more they can carry. I'm sorry mate but you don't know what you are talking about, learn the facts at least and make a somewhat decent counter argument because this is something that is relatively black and white answer wise.

Please don't quote me and be all butthurt. I've had that happen too many times.

Friends, you're still accusing me of saying supports can't carry. Please read my posts again, I'm not saying that it's impossible. I'm saying it is unusual and rare, and not intended for that role. It is not your job to carry, carry is not the word you would use in that situation. You are making a great impact because you are playing well, your AD would not be as strong without you, but you are merely a tool in helping them close out the game. They will bash and shoot at the towers and the bad men until they've been leveled and razed, you will reload their weapons and give them fresh bulletproof vests as theirs begin to wear out.

Please read this again: What is a carry?

[Deleted]

Allrighty, here is an example. The point is that in linked game, nearly everyone played poorly, Kha'zix was crushed top (despite his ending score), Diana was even with Kass, but was not able to roam and Ashe was only slightly ahead due to the outcome of lane.

What really happen was that the enemy made huge mistake by picking up Nidalee support (one couldn't know, because this was random blind pick with some random friends), and me being Lulu can capitalize on it. By knowing I have weak lane opponent I immediately started with their jungle (putting ward by their blue). Their jungle being some random guy, smited first, so I was able to grab his blue completely solo, and Nunu starting on his red put him even further back.

First like 15 minutes I spent by pushing their bot away all over again, because there is nothing Nidalee can do with the harass you put out as Lulu, and fending other laners because they naturally wanted to prevent us from snowballing hard. As their bot was overstaying, I could kill them over and over with anchored glitterlance, thus I could easily buy bruiser items and be able to 1v1 mostly everyone but Zed (that's the reason for Randuins being there). At that stage, I was relatively powerful, Ashe OK, Kha'zix/Diana being behind. What we did was simply to take everything where Zed couldn't be, because GP was pretty weak due to early blows and their botlane was pretty much a joke. In those skirmishes, Kha'zix was able to close the gap and get ahead eventually. The rest of game was stomp of course.

Well the point of story here is that playing support is not being throwaway player, instead you are free to do pretty much everything as the only thing that bounds you is some guy not being able to 1v2 and needing those shared experience points. As you can see, being by far more experienced player, I could take over the game even while not playing carry or jungle. If I let myself be outplayed by that Nidalee (eg. preventing her from going super sustain and throwing away like only advantage the champion has), I would have lost the game. Bronze player can't complain that he can't get out of bronze, because he has to play support only. Such player would simply belong in bronze.