Dungeon deserter debuff.. is it fair?

Deleted · 2011-06-09, 12:59 AM

So i recently started healing, now i'm not the best healer ever, but im fairly competent at ii. Unfortunately i dont have much gear.
we are at the point in the expansion wherre no one uses CC anymore and this can make it difficult for a new barely geared healer, if well geared tanks pull without cc i can heal through it fine, but i keep getting tanks in half dps gear doing it, most of the time they cant hold threat either, which creates some incredibly hard healing. according to recount i put out anywhere between 8-14k hps as a holy pally wether this is good or bad i dont know.
now i inspect every tank before i start a run and even if there gear is terrible, most of the time not even enough to get into heroics (i think alot of them buy gear they dont use to buff up their ilvl) but i give every tank the chance and try heal through it. The problem starts when i cant heal through it, i decide i need to leave, no amount of my healing is going to get us through that dungeon.

so anyway this leads to my point. do you think the dungeon deserter debuff is fair, now i understand the pvp deserter debuff since you ditched a team just because you were not winning and i suppose the same could be said for the dungeon deserter, but the thing is a loss in pvp does not lead to endless wipes, hours and hours of time and massive repair bills.
i feel i should not be punished because some dps suddenly thinks he's a tank, cant hold threat, hasnt even bothered to go through normals, and is wearing a load of dps blues and some tanking greens.

now im not having a go at tanks, my main is a tank and i enjoy doing it alot but i thought i would give healing a try to understand what healers go through when they heal me. and to try something different.

i think the people who leave when their loot item doesnt drop or when the drake in stone core does not drop should be punished, unfortunately it seems impossible to differentiate between the two from a coding stand point.

but i'd rather have them go without punishment than getting punished for leaving an impossible run, its basically me being punished for the tanks ignorance, i dont think i should be punished for not wanting to wipe for hours on end because someone does not know how/bother to gear properly for their role.

ive healed tanks who have geared up through normals fine and had no problems with it but when its someone in mainly dps gear its practically impossible.

so what do you think is it fair or not?

**Alkuaine** · 2011-06-09, 01:08 AM

It's fair, When I meet someone like that, I usually wait 2 minutes, then just kick them if they can't tank.

Deleted · 2011-06-09, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by Alkuaine

It's fair, When I meet someone like that, I usually wait 2 minutes, then just kick them if they can't tank.

yeh sometimes i can get away with doing that, but CtA never helped with tank times in our battlegroup so alot of the dps are very apprehensive about kicking a tank in fear of having to wait ages.

**artemishunter1** · 2011-06-09, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by kintharis

So i recently started healing, now i'm not the best healer ever, but im fairly competent at ii. Unfortunately i dont have much gear.
we are at the point in the expansion wherre no one uses CC anymore and this can make it difficult for a new barely geared healer, if well geared tanks pull without cc i can heal through it fine, but i keep getting tanks in half dps gear doing it, most of the time they cant hold threat either, which creates some incredibly hard healing. according to recount i put out anywhere between 8-14k hps as a holy pally wether this is good or bad i dont know.
now i inspect every tank before i start a run and even if there gear is terrible, most of the time not even enough to get into heroics (i think alot of them buy gear they dont use to buff up their ilvl) but i give every tank the chance and try heal through it. The problem starts when i cant heal through it, i decide i need to leave, no amount of my healing is going to get us through that dungeon.

so anyway this leads to my point. do you think the dungeon deserter debuff is fair, now i understand the pvp deserter debuff since you ditched a team just because you were not winning and i suppose the same could be said for the dungeon deserter, but the thing is a loss in pvp does not lead to endless wipes, hours and hours of time and massive repair bills.
i feel i should not be punished because some dps suddenly thinks he's a tank, cant hold threat, hasnt even bothered to go through normals, and is wearing a load of dps blues and some tanking greens.

now im not having a go at tanks, my main is a tank and i enjoy doing it alot but i thought i would give healing a try to understand what healers go through when they heal me. and to try something different.

i think the people who leave when their loot item doesnt drop or when the drake in stone core does not drop should be punished, unfortunately it seems impossible to differentiate between the two from a coding stand point.

but i'd rather have them go without punishment than getting punished for leaving an impossible run, its basically me being punished for the tanks ignorance, i dont think i should be punished for not wanting to wipe for hours on end because someone does not know how/bother to gear properly for their role.

ive healed tanks who have geared up through normals fine and had no problems with it but when its someone in mainly dps gear its practically impossible.

so what do you think is it fair or not?

At first, try asking the tank to cc? If they kick you, you do not get the debuff. You can also heal through 15 minutes, after 15 minutes if you drop group, you don't get the debuff. yes, the system along with vote kick is completely fair. people are drama queens who like to complain about everything. even if cure for cancer is discovered, i am 100 percent certain someone would complain about it. The debuff was given so that the heal and tank don't immediately drop group when they get instances like Occulus of wrath, and Grim batol of Cata, not to mention Stonecore too. if tanks and heals simply dropped group without penalty, it would create tank shortage and heal shortage for those instances. dps than have to drop group adn wait for another 30 minutes.

The same goes for vote kick system. if tanks had unlimited votekicking power, or even three votekicking power, forget getting the gear as dps. if tanks want teh dps gear, they will simply vote kick the competition. the rest of the group will have to votekick too since they will be replaced too. tanks would hold the whole group hostage.

what i wrote here, is not something that could happen but these things are something that DID happen in wrath. that why blizzard created the debuff and limitation of vote kicking function. they were not released with the random dangeon finder que.

Deleted · 2011-06-09, 01:13 AM

In the situation you described in your post, I don't think it's fair and I agree with you. I've had this happen to me as a healer and it's just stupid to try and do anything about it when they seem to be 'the best at the game and can DPS-tank'. It is incredibly annoying for us healers to deal with these idiots and if we leave we are punished because of someone else. I think the deserter debuff has it's ups and downs, but in this case, I agree with you.

Deleted · 2011-06-09, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Alkuaine

It's fair, When I meet someone like that, I usually wait 2 minutes, then just kick them if they can't tank.

I would do that, if you were allowed to kick them when you wanted. And groups weren't retarded (had them decline a kick for a fury warrior doing 3k dps in hc DM today).

**Poodles** · 2011-06-09, 01:17 AM

If you wipe and then leave, you don't get the debuff.

**Kugel** · 2011-06-09, 01:25 AM

Just FYI you do know you can vote kick them right? You either suck it up and deal with waiting for a tank or keep your deserter debuff... just my two cents...

**Poodles** · 2011-06-09, 01:29 AM

...or you wipe and then leave and don't get the debuff. You don't have to wait until you can kick the tank either. Sure you have to pay for repairs but it's minor from one death.

**Uggorthaholy** · 2011-06-09, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by artemishunter1

If they kick you, you do not get the debuff.

<snip>

I've been kicked right after the start of an instance - I was asked to be kicked because all of the DPS were acting like fools, and it was near impossible for me to heal.

I got 30 minute deserter for being kicked before a boss was down.

Unsure if working as intended, or bug.

**Oerba Yun Fang** · 2011-06-09, 01:32 AM

I don't even remember the last time I got the deserter debuff from leaving a group. I honestly wasn't even certain it was still in the game.

**Renowned** · 2011-06-09, 01:35 AM

If you're sure it's the tank and not you, votekick.

The other thing I got from your post was that in BGs, the other team can win, but in dungeons they can't. Time to ponder how they might change that: Defending something ala CoT:BM/VH, cap on number of wipes/deaths/time...

Deleted · 2011-06-09, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Renowned

If you're sure it's the tank and not you, votekick.

The other thing I got from your post was that in BGs, the other team can win, but in dungeons they can't. Time to ponder how they might change that: Defending something ala CoT:BM/VH, cap on number of wipes/deaths/time...

yeh people in my battlegroup get very apprehensive about kicking tanks though since we still have fairly long wait times, and lot of the itime the vote kick will fail because a dps would rather wipe than have the fear of a long wait.

as i say im not the best healer by far, and usually when i leave i feel it's me at fault for not being able to heal the tank, but most of the tanks im on about probably wouldn't survive a normal.
you can tell most of them are normally dps since they in dps blues with a few tank greens or blues, but its mainly the dps kit boosting their ilvl up.

the BG reference was just comparing it to the BG deseter debuff which i personally think its fair since your jus tleaving becaus eyour team is losing, and a BG wont go on forever they all have a time limit and there is a very small repair bill at the end, were as a dungeon wipefest can go on indefinately.

yeh i think they sort of tried the cap thing with ToC and people were not happy about it but maybe it would work alot better in a 5 man enviroment.

there are definately ups and downs to the debuff system, and its nice to see both sides of the story.

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 03:14 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Poodles

...or you wipe and then leave and don't get the debuff. You don't have to wait until you can kick the tank either. Sure you have to pay for repairs but it's minor from one death.

i have recieved the debuff after a wipe a few times. i think you have to have been in the instance for 15 mins for this to apply.

**xeddin** · 2011-06-09, 02:15 AM

no1 used CC anymore? isnt that all we have?

Deleted · 2011-06-09, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by artemishunter1

At first, try asking the tank to cc? If they kick you, you do not get the debuff. You can also heal through 15 minutes, after 15 minutes if you drop group, you don't get the debuff. yes, the system along with vote kick is completely fair. people are drama queens who like to complain about everything. even if cure for cancer is discovered, i am 100 percent certain someone would complain about it. The debuff was given so that the heal and tank don't immediately drop group when they get instances like Occulus of wrath, and Grim batol of Cata, not to mention Stonecore too. if tanks and heals simply dropped group without penalty, it would create tank shortage and heal shortage for those instances. dps than have to drop group adn wait for another 30 minutes.

The same goes for vote kick system. if tanks had unlimited votekicking power, or even three votekicking power, forget getting the gear as dps. if tanks want teh dps gear, they will simply vote kick the competition. the rest of the group will have to votekick too since they will be replaced too. tanks would hold the whole group hostage.

what i wrote here, is not something that could happen but these things are something that DID happen in wrath. that why blizzard created the debuff and limitation of vote kicking function. they were not released with the random dangeon finder que.

oh i certainly know about tanks skipping out, i've been a tank for most of my years in wow, but spent a while as a dps and saw many skip the occulus, i dont think quite so many skip grim batol though.

and i know about the people q'ing with tanks for faster q's then the tank leaving, allthough i always thought it was fairly pointless since if the tank left your left waiting for one again.

i always ask for cc at the beginning of a run if i see the tank is not geared, and they always say it will be fine then run headlong into a pack of adds and die before i can even cast a heal.
these tanks are usually DK's which i hate to say since i play a DK as a main and obviously im not overly fond of the mass DK bashing but i'm starting to see where people are coming from with it now.
most of them dont know about defensive CD's or that they are alot more responsible than any other tank for keeping themselves alive Ie self healing and blood shield.

said nothing about tanks having more vote kick power, when i do play my tank most people tend to agree with me when i decidde to kick a player but that i think is just because everyone puts tanks on some sort of wierd pedastool and will agree with whatever they say, that sort of power does not come easily when you play a healer :P
ive always been a main spec before Off Spec kind of guy, and always find it to be the dps needing on tank or healing gear rather than the other way round. ive lost many items i needed to dps needing on it when its not main spec gear, but they some how think this is fair yet if i needed on their dps gear i'd get bitched and moaned at, infact ive lost 3 peices today alone to dps needing stuff for their off specs.

this post i saw on blue tracker is a perfect example
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...k-loot-dispute

"While in ZA the tank helm drops of the bear-boss.
The tank needed on it with a 89
I need on in because i wanted to make a tank set (had the spec rdy)
My roll is in the mid 50's (as usual)
The group scolds me on how dps should NEVER EVER need on tank gear. I was then kicked
I personally believe i should be able to need on it if i want it for a set, not to sell though.

Do YOU *points* think i was wrong for that? Or was the group wrong?"

this part particularly
"The tank needed on it with a 89
I need on in because i WANTED to make a tank set (had the spec rdy)"

so because he WANT'S a tank set, the tank whos farming tank gear and NEED'S the gear loses out. why should the dps get the loot the tank is running for when the dps isnt even in that role. got no probs with Off spec gearing if your not needing it off someone who needs it for main spec.
yet i bet if the tank needed on any dps gear the dps wanted he would of kicked up a shit storm about it.

anyway im getting off topic here that's a different debate alltogether,

in summary i agree with you i just wish the system could differentiate those who leave just because its Grim batol etc from those who leave because someone is frightfully under geared. maybe have ilvl be calculated on what you have equipped and if that item is relevent to your current spec, or have a reqirement of a certain amount of peices of gear aimed at your current spec before you can q as that role.

but this also represents another problem, there is a massive difference in the level of heroics, for instance i dont think meeting the heroic gearing requirement qualifies you to heal grim batol, you will do fine in BRC but GB is a whole different beast, which is why alot of people dont like to do it. yet you can get thrown into it as your first heroic if you choose random which most do. its the same with and HoO and alot of people will struggle with stonecore.

Deleted · 2011-06-09, 03:03 AM

Imo once you have inspected the tank, decided that maybe some CC is in order and asked for it in party it's then kinda up to you:

You can either:
1) hope the tank starts marking a CC target or 3
2) mark CC yourself and say "mage please sheep moon" or whatever.
3) hope a dps randomly decides to grow some spuds, make a decision for themselves in a 5 man and CC's something
4) work out who is right by pulling without CC and seeing how many people are left alive at the end

Now in reality only 1 or 4 is actually likely to happen (tho I guess you can directly attempt option 2, which may or maynot work), but either way this will only take a pull or 2 before the 5 of you actually have some "evidence" of how things will go.
Worst case scenario is that you wipe and die, and assuming the above poster is correct, you can leave and not get the debuff.

TLDR:
Just let them roll with it, if u wipe just leave . Or they kick you for being "crap". Or they decide you might have been right and use some CC. I can't believe that any group of players with CC available will wipe, pull again without CC, wipe, pull again without CC for hours on end without either learning or rage quitting. Then again the nearest I risk going to pugging ever is me and 2 other guildies, and even then at least 1 of them will be a tank/healer.