NATO Vs Anonymous

[Magisleeper]

So.. military good.. Civilian.. dumb pesky prying rodent without rights to knowledge of actions of government?

Am I close? If so do I get some cheese if I keep my mouth shut and eyes closed?

[xile]

lol at most of you. you can tell you are mostly americans, whether it be for or against what anonymous stands for. you guys really should leave your country and see what the world thinks, and knows about you lot, and your military. there are 2 reasons why your country is a superpower. one: you keep selling your property and bonds to china. and two: fear (aka weapons) worlds largest or 2nd largest landmine producer, amongst other things. the military and armaments industry is the keeping your economy afloat

the kyoto protocol, why didnt you sign it? o wait, money again. in the meanwhile, fuck the rest of the world. inb4 china pollutes too, not nearly as long or as much as you do.

cia funding afghani camps in the 80s, that trained osama. nicuraguan (sp?) contras. the failed drug war

all these things the rest of the world knows, and more. and people are not happy about it, hence why anonymous is coming to the fore. it wouldnt surprise me in the least if it was a bunch of american anonymous guys that caused all sorts of shit, but then again, if it wasnt americans, it wouldnt surprise me either.

your country, your corporations, your government and your goddamn hypocrisy have it coming to you. personally, I dont give a flying fuck either way. the american empire has had its time. or has it? thats up to the people like you, and anonymous (believe it or not) to stop the rot before the chinese take your place

you do realize that almost every developed nation in the world lives its day to day life on these hypocrisies? oh lord.

[Stir]

There are some things I feel should be addressed:
First of all, the comparison between Anonymous and the corporations/governments/unities, and how they're both evils in how they handle things:
1: Anonymous does not have a single way in how they handle things. Anonymous hacks, Anonymous leaks, Anonymous spreads opinions, Anonymous spreads awareness.
2: Anonymous is not a body of people as generally expected. They have no hierarchy, and they have no name. They have no face, and they have no appointed spokesmen. Anonymous is Anonymous; they are a Hive without a Queen. Anonymous is Anarchy. As such, the Legion often, but far from always, shares ideals and codes of conduct... But far from always.
3: Because Anonymous is not an organization, Anonymous does not have the responsibility that governments have. They do not need to follow the rules of governments or corporations. They are free and unbound. If a government does the same things as Anonymous, then, unlike Anonymous, the government bares the responsibility for doing it. If Anonymous hacks, then Anonymous is not responsible for said hacking. If a government hacks, then the government is responsible. This is because Anonymous is the People, and anyone of the People.

Now, on the whole 'governments aren't trying to screw people over:'
Of course they are. Governments are about control. When people on the top control something, they become wealthy, or their ideals become the nation's ideals. The rest of the populace doesn't get taken into account. The argument of re-election and governments being born by the people are valid ones... Until you realize that, without transparency, elections are a farce. A good example of this is shown in the Arab Spring movement, where the people rose against their governments en masse. These people weren't free when they rose. They have been suppressed for ages on end. They've known poverty, and their voice was unheard, even if they officially lived in a 'democracy,' or 'republic.' And even then, in some of these countries, the governments were still protected by the military. The corruption drove soldiers against civilians.

When the people rise up, this is evidence that the government was doing things the wrong way. Every uprising of the populace is warranted and 'just,' because the people are the majority. A majority is always right in a democracy.

Without transparency, the Majority has no idea of what is going on. Without transparency, the Majority can be played, guided, goaded, coaxed and coerced into anything; even the votes can be fabricated. The entire American election system already seems to rely on the amount of money raised for an election campaign, and EU nations are now following in this trend. When ideals get replaced by money, something smells.

Anonymous is now on the campaign for freedom of information. To inform the people, so that the people might make a fair choice depending on what they feel is right. To smother the fraudulent behaviour that has become the Democracy of the Blind.

It's not a war. It's simple exposure. Hacktivism. And it's peaceful, indeed. There is no actual violence going on; merely provoking.

Who would win? Anonymous stands a chance because there are no leaders. Anonymous enjoys some of the people's sympathy, and anyone who feels for their cause, anyone who even so much as spreads this message, supports Anonymous (and may, for all intents and purposes, be considered 'a member of Anonymous,' in so much as anyone can ever be considered a member of a group that isn't even a group to begin with).

An army can simply do nothing about that. Absolutely nothing. Sure; they could crack some heads, but this would only serve to infuriate people. They could act according to the various terrorism-laws, but then: Information would still leak. Every concise action of a government against this campaign of Anonymous will only serve against them; will only serve to further weaken the people's trust in their governments.

At the end of the day, it's not important how skilful Anonymous is. It's not important how good the NATO's tech is, or how skilful their hackers are. All that is matters is awareness. And with each response, the spread of awareness grows stronger.

[wvx]

Everyone has a price.

Not true ... there are people who wouldn't be bought for any price (regarding a specific thing) . If I really don't want to do something and I'm pissed off , it doesn't matter how much you pay me .

[Catta]

I'd like to say that it isnt all governments getting all evil and corrupt... Like its inevitable that they get powerhungry and unbelievably wealthy...

[rektbrah]

fuck society man

[Stir]

I'd like to say that it isnt all governments getting all evil and corrupt... Like its inevitable that they get powerhungry and unbelievably wealthy...

History teaches us a very firm lesson in that regard.
Name one government that hasn't.

I do agree that governments are necessary for human security. I also happen to know that governments invariably turn bad as they last longer, unless they are kept in check by the people. And even then, they don't last, but eventually crumble due to nothing other than themselves and their own corruption.
A movement such as Anonymous or Wikileaks could actually increase a government's longevity by forcing it to play fair.

[rektbrah]

[Catta]

History teaches us a very firm lesson in that regard.
Name one government that hasn't.

I do agree that governments are necessary for human security. I also happen to know that governments invariably turn bad as they last longer, unless they are kept in check by the people. And even then, they don't last, but eventually crumble due to nothing other than themselves and their own corruption.
A movement such as Anonymous or Wikileaks could actually increase a government's longevity by forcing it to play fair.

Mine... there... Settles that...


Greenland?

[Stir]

Ireland? Ehm... the Financial crisis there didn't just pop into existence, you know...
As for Greenland: It's only been home-ruled since 1979. I don't know how things are going there now, either, but considering the country's resource, I expect someone's filling their pockets without other people knowing.

[Catta]

Ireland? Ehm... the Financial crisis there didn't just pop into existence, you know...
As for Greenland: It's only been home-ruled since 1979. I don't know how things are going there now, either, but considering the country's resource, I expect someone's filling their pockets without other people knowing.

very little is going on up there - most is sold to external companies... its preserved you know...

---------- Post added 2011-06-14 at 03:28 PM ----------

Ireland? Ehm... the Financial crisis there didn't just pop into existence, you know...
As for Greenland: It's only been home-ruled since 1979. I don't know how things are going there now, either, but considering the country's resource, I expect someone's filling their pockets without other people knowing.

other than that... Norway, Sweden and Denmark? Finland?

Edit: Iceland?

[Ventashar]

What a joke. Anonymous has no idea who its talking to, does it?
They claim that they intend to take on an entity which, in a single day, spends more money than all of them combined will ever earn in their lifetimes?
Sorry, anonymous, you guys aren't the best hackers in the world. Not even slightly close. The best hackers in the world work for the military, the guys you are talking shit to.
Why? Because unlike anonymous, the military has a structured hierarchy that gives all of its members a comfortable salary. The military has millions of men and women who believe that what they are doing is right. Anonymous has a handful of people who think what they are doing is right, and a few thousand kids who occasionally follow you because they think hacking makes you cool.

Good luck in your war on the most powerful organization on Earth!

This post right here, agreed.

[Deleted]

I'd like to say that it isnt all governments getting all evil and corrupt... Like its inevitable that they get powerhungry and unbelievably wealthy...

“Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.”
—Thomas Jefferson (1st Inaugural, 1801)

It's inevitable that politicians in government get "all evil and corrupt", but if there exist laws and tools that help the people to stop them, the government can be saved. I'd say on a long enough timeline though the people won't, for whatever reason, be able to stop them.

[Catta]

“Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.”
—Thomas Jefferson (1st Inaugural, 1801)

It's inevitable that politicians in government get "all evil and corrupt", but if there exist laws and tools that help the people to stop them, the government can be saved. I'd say on a long enough timeline though the people won't, for whatever reason, be able to stop them.

Well - i technically have a king to govern me...

Edit: If the politicians are allowed to get money from lobbyists then yes, theres gonna be corruption - but if they are not allowed to recieve gifts on the other hand - and if they do risk getting thrown out then i think theres gonna be much less corruption and i also question the inevitability of it

[Stir]

Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland.. They all know their own forms of corruption. Building corporations, banks and real estate are all intwined with politics, and these are the kind of branches that generally bribe politicians to lobby for certain things. Sometimes, the politicians are relatives (the VVD, a Dutch 'liberal' party, is full of politicians with mixed interests, for instance), but sometimes they're coerced or bought by third parties.

It happens everywhere, and this isn't tinfoil hatting. It's relatively small in most cases, and in some cases, relatively harmless. In other cases, it's what drives the free market to the 'benefit of all,' and in other cases, it leads to world-wide recessions such as the world-wide mortgage scam.

This sort of thing is the prime reason Wikileaks exist. To stop this kind of underhand politics, and to allow people the knowledge of the things that are happening.

The Netherlands has its on institution that actually looks into this sort of thing in their own government. This has lead to several rather huge revelations, which in turn lead to several problems with politicians going in denial, admitting one thing or another, but usually getting away with the statement that they acted in good conscience. And that's because it's not independent like wikileaks is. But before that institution revealed several documents, I was completely unaware that anything the likes would be going on in the country I live in. Fraud and such was for countries like France, Italy and the US... Surely not the NL? But it is... And it has become apparant that nearly every financial crisis ever happens because of fraudulent government things. Politicians who are paid to not discuss certain things, paid to adocate certain other things, paid to fuel certain feelings, paid to agree with certain decisions, or simply paid to look the other way.

[Catta]

Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland.. They all know their own forms of corruption. Building corporations, banks and real estate are all intwined with politics, and these are the kind of branches that generally bribe politicians to lobby for certain things. Sometimes, the politicians are relatives (the VVD, a Dutch 'liberal' party, is full of politicians with mixed interests, for instance), but sometimes they're coerced or bought by third parties.

It happens everywhere, and this isn't tinfoil hatting. It's relatively small in most cases, and in some cases, relatively harmless. In other cases, it's what drives the free market to the 'benefit of all,' and in other cases, it leads to world-wide recessions such as the world-wide mortgage scam.

This sort of thing is the prime reason Wikileaks exist. To stop this kind of underhand politics, and to allow people the knowledge of the things that are happening.

The Netherlands has its on institution that actually looks into this sort of thing in their own government. This has lead to several rather huge revelations, which in turn lead to several problems with politicians going in denial, admitting one thing or another, but usually getting away with the statement that they acted in good conscience. And that's because it's not independent like wikileaks is. But before that institution revealed several documents, I was completely unaware that anything the likes would be going on in the country I live in. Fraud and such was for countries like France, Italy and the US... Surely not the NL? But it is... And it has become apparant that nearly every financial crisis ever happens because of fraudulent government things. Politicians who are paid to not discuss certain things, paid to adocate certain other things, paid to fuel certain feelings, paid to agree with certain decisions, or simply paid to look the other way.

... Denmark then! The last safe haven of everything nice and fluffy

[Deleted]

Well - i technically have a king to govern me...

Edit: If the politicians are allowed to get money from lobbyists then yes, theres gonna be corruption - but if they are not allowed to recieve gifts on the other hand - and if they do risk getting thrown out then i think theres gonna be much less corruption and i also question the inevitability of it

There's no way to prevent politicians from recieving favors from corporations/private persons. It could simply be a promise of a favor after his political career. But you can however, prevent politicians from giving favors to corporations/private persons by limiting the power of politicians and government.

You probably think your government is not corrupt. Think again - they're all corrupt, some more than others. To somehow indulge in the fantasy that your own government is an exception is naïve.

[Catta]

There's no way to prevent politicians from recieving favors from corporations/private persons. It could simply be a promise of a favor after his political career. But you can however, prevent politicians from giving favors to corporations/private persons by limiting the power of politicians and government.

You probably think your government is not corrupt. Think again - they're all corrupt, some more than others. To somehow indulge in the fantasy that your own government is an exception is naïve.

Last time a minister recieved a watch from a saudi prince he was made to return it... theres pretty much a zero tolerance...

[Meledelion]

I'm wondering if Anonymous would be able to defend their case (if they get caught by let's say the USA) by using the 2nd amendment: the right to bear and keep arms.

Also I live in Belgium a tiny yet wealthy country in Europe, sadly we are also ranked 16th in the world on the "corruption" list.
With this I mean to state that being a wealthy and developed country doesn't automaticly make you "clean" corruption comes in many forms, you can bribe people directly or you can have conflicts of interests which aren't shown on the surface and many more.

Regarding Anonymous vs PSN. Did they claim both atacks and did they admit to being responsible for taking down PSN and releasing the information, or is it a subgroup of Anonymous that did either of those or both/neither?
I ask this since I find it weird that Anonymous' mo is using DOS atacks to keep a network down, and inflict "damage" in this way resulting in what they hope to be changes. Releasing info of individuals doesn't seem to be part of their "tricks" unless it's a single person who's to blame for the wrongs and not a corporation.

[Deleted]

Last time a minister recieved a watch from a saudi prince he was made to return it... theres pretty much a zero tolerance...

Yes, but it's not like the watch gift was done in great secrecy. If they really want to give favors to politicians, they will be able to do it. And it's being done all the time.