Dev Explanation of 4.2 (Prot specific)

[Magisleeper]

I highly expect changes to be made once 4.2 goes live and they see how much this is going to hurt the majority of casual tankadins who arent going to do what a good raid tank would which is cap your block chance and in probobly 70% of the fights simply keep holy shield up off CD all the time; And in the other 30% maybe wait an extra 10 seconds for a forseable dmg spike.

The whole point is that the CD is useless unless your gaurenteed to block during the use of the CD.

[Deleted]

This is not a useless CD if you're not guanrateed to block. Even the shitties geared pally has 50% block chance at the least, we block a lot regardless a buff to our block is going to be useful either way. Is it as useful as a "real" CD like Divine Protection? No, but that doesn't make it useless. If you're gonna compare it to something compare it to a dodge/parry trinket, it's not guaranteed to lower your damage intake in a 10sec period but chances are it will.

And yes this will hurt "casual" tankadins who don't utilize the ability to it's fullest potential. That's kind of the whole point, if you don't play the class as well as you can you won't be as good. That's an upside of this design, not a downside.

[ZeroEdgeir]

This change will get hotfixed, at least 2 times, between launch of 4.2 and 4.3 PTR.

And the 4.3 PTR will have likely changes coming for Prot Paladin and Warrior masteries, to ensure the whole capping issue ISN'T an issue.

[Talen]

This is not a useless CD if you're not guanrateed to block.

As a survival CD...its useless. It'll be like entering combat without your defence at 539.

It is NOT and should not be seen as a replacement for Divine Protection or Ardent Defender.

Its a mitigation tool, something designed to help healers heal you over the course of a fight. Over short periods of time, it won't really matter if you use it or not. You'll need to survive with or without it simply because of its RNG nature. You can't have phases of the fight where whether you live or die is up to the flip of a coin. Over long fights...thats when it'll have an impact and that impact will be on a healers mana. Not your health pool.

As I said earlier, the question then is whether its actually worthwhile saving for certain phases. Doing so means you'll likely (though not certainly) take less damage during that phase. But that has to be balanced against the loss of mitigation from the need to keep it available.

And, unless there is a clear difference in that - unless there is a clear effect on healers mana over the course of a fight, in favour of saving it for the "right" moment - then it will be better off macroed to every ability you have and then forgotten about.

EJL

[Deleted]

I suspect the best way to use Holy Shield will be to macro it to all your physical damage cooldowns then use it intelligently outside of the known points in the fight where you are going to take heavy damage.

Also blue geared tanks do not have 50% block chance. They just don't at all.

[Deleted]

As a survival CD...its useless. It'll be like entering combat without your defence at 539.

It is NOT and should not be seen as a replacement for Divine Protection or Ardent Defender.

Its a mitigation tool, something designed to help healers heal you over the course of a fight. Over short periods of time, it won't really matter if you use it or not. You'll need to survive with or without it simply because of its RNG nature. You can't have phases of the fight where whether you live or die is up to the flip of a coin. Over long fights...thats when it'll have an impact and that impact will be on a healers mana. Not your health pool.

As I said earlier, the question then is whether its actually worthwhile saving for certain phases. Doing so means you'll likely (though not certainly) take less damage during that phase. But that has to be balanced against the loss of mitigation from the need to keep it available.

And, unless there is a clear difference in that - unless there is a clear effect on healers mana over the course of a fight, in favour of saving it for the "right" moment - then it will be better off macroed to every ability you have and then forgotten about.

Ok first of all the whole "healer mana" thing might have mattered at the start of the xpac, by the time healers hit heroic modes and enter Firelands it's a lot closer to WotLK style of healing. I only have 4 heroic pieces on my holy set and I'm already able to go entire fights spamming Divine Light and Holy Radiance. We don't itemize or play for healer mana, we play for survival.

And again just because you're not guaranteed damage reduction on every swing doesn't mean this CD is "useless" as a survival tool. No it's not as good as DP, but whoever said this will be a DP replacement? Since when do we need a replacement for it, it's not like we're losing DP. This can be used to either stack with DP for an even better cd or it can be used right before or after it to do a CD chain. I can already think of multiple cases in the current tier alone where I'd much rather time it as part of a CD rotation than macro it into anything. On Magmaw I'd chain it with DP to get better coverage for each phase while mangled, on Nefarian whan tanking adds+Ony in P1 I'd time it properly as well as when tanking adds in P3 I'd time it around stuns and how many stacks the adds have. In every one of those situations it would be useful.

And yeah on bosses like Omnotron or Atra I'd prefer to have the old version and stay at 40% non-stop, and on those fights I'd use it on CD. But even there I'd click it every 30 seconds not macro it and let it activate itself. With all the non-damage phases such as when Atra is breathing or flying It's best not to have it up. If there's one thing I like about this is that it really will put in some small award for players good enough to micromanage the CD on it, and penalize anyone who can't handle it and ends up just making a macro.

Also blue geared tanks do not have 50% block chance. They just don't at all.

They easily could if they itemized directly for it, although that probably won't be quite optimal. It only takes ~2k mastery rating to get 50% block, between all the crafted items, rep items, justice point items... that's very very easy to get in 4.2.

[Deleted]

They easily could if they itemized directly for it, although that probably won't be quite optimal. It only takes ~2k mastery rating to get 50% block, between all the crafted items, rep items, justice point items... that's very very easy to get in 4.2.

It depends really if you are talking about a tank that is more than geared for normal raids or not. However at that point it isn't really fair to class such a tank as shittily geared. Yes with 4.2 gear it is certainly possible and will be even easier given the availability of 359 pieces for Justice points.

I will say it again. In most cases it looks like the best use of Holy Shield will be in conjunction with other cooldowns. Overall damage taken due to the change is likely to increase but not to a great extent. It will if anything just make it a bit more noticeable which tanks use cooldowns correctly and which don't - Which is something any healer can spot easily, especially if they have any experience playing a Cata tank themself.

[Magisleeper]

The simple fact is that looking at the overall passive mitigation your going to be taking more damage, and the amount of damage you take is going to be alot more spikey whenever there is not a predictable increase in damage you can time the cooldown around. And I agree most definatly its going to make it even more obvious which tanks are managing CDs properly. But I stand by what I say, if only to add the qualifier 'Mostly Useless' and point out again that this encourages tanks to stack on mastery for full use out of this CD, -This is against the goal blizzard stated many times that they had to make this change to holy shield- To paraphrase: 'Blizz: We are making this change to prevent stacking/capping mastery ratings.' What I see 'To get full use out of the holy shield CD you need full uptime on your avoidance CDs so stack block until you do.'

Sorry but however it may add a new dynamic they may be more enjoyable to raid tanks who get bored it just doesnt achieve the goal they claim its setting out to. And while you did state many good examples of times it would be usefull and wise to have an extra cd in our mix we are still losing overall mitigation and I forsee the majority of tankadins just using it with other cds or keeping it off cd every chance they get.

[Deleted]

Sorry but however it may add a new dynamic they may be more enjoyable to raid tanks who get bored it just doesnt achieve the goal they claim its setting out to. And while you did state many good examples of times it would be usefull and wise to have an extra cd in our mix we are still losing overall mitigation and I forsee the majority of tankadins just using it with other cds or keeping it off cd every chance they get.

Actually the goal they're claiming they're setting out to do with this specific change is to make the paladin more dynamic to tank with, which it does do to an extend. Fixing our reliance on block cap is another goal of theirs which they gave up on for this patch release. Which is still pretty bad considering it's been an year since beta and they're just now realizing and thinking of changing the mastery, but at least it's a small step in the direction of making pallies more skill dependent and less passive.

[Talen]

Ok first of all the whole "healer mana" thing might have mattered at the start of the xpac, by the time healers hit heroic modes and enter Firelands it's a lot closer to WotLK style of healing. I only have 4 heroic pieces on my holy set and I'm already able to go entire fights spamming Divine Light and Holy Radiance. We don't itemize or play for healer mana, we play for survival.

And the new Holy Shield ISN'T a good tool at that. It depends on RNG. If you treat it as a survival CD, what you are doing is flippign a coing.

Heads, you live. Tails you die.

What it does is mitigate the damage you take but...because it is RNG...you're going to be able to survive with or without it. **IF** you're ever in a situation where you need to rely on HS to survive....you've mishandled the encounter. Take your chances but know that you survived through luck. You may be able to gear to skew things in your favour...but its still sheer luck.

In other words, it helps you survive encounters you should already be capable of surviving. What it does, therefore, is increase your margin of safety and reduce the healing you need. Its not a survival CD. Its RNG.

It literally CAN'T be relied upon over short phases but where it does help is over long fights because the RNG flattens out a bit. You will get all sorts of fights where people state "HS saved me" and "I would have died if I hadn't used HS". You will also get comments such as "I activated HS and it didn't block one single attack".

When it comes to deciding how bets to use it, there are only three real options.

1: Macro it and forget about it.
2: Save it for certain phases and sue it to beef up the existing CDs.
3: A mix...save it for the phases you know will happen, but spam it if you have time.

There aren't any others that are feasible.

So, theres no point looking upon it as a survival tool.

You're doing it wrong if you do that. The question is how to use it to best effect.

IF macroing HS to existing abilities results in you taking less damage over a fight than you saving it for certain phases....then yes, you should macro it and use it every CD you can.

IF keeping it for certain phases, probably in conjunction with existign CDs, means you take less damage, then its best used that way.

And IF using a mix provdies the best reduction, then that is the route you go.

And if the results are close, you go for the option that is less intrusive...the macro option.

You are right that tanks should gear for survival and not to help healer mana. The two are linked, but ultimately, thats what this spell does....it makes you save healer mana. You take less damage over the course of a fight which means over that timeframe, you require less healing and less mana spent. In short phases, HS may or may not be of benefit and the amount it mitgates will be RNG as well. Over long fights...things setlle down.

And while you may argue that its now a lot closer to LK style healing, thats also partly why Blizzard said they have taken steps to reduce that.

I can already think of multiple cases in the current tier alone where I'd much rather time it as part of a CD rotation than macro it into anything.

As I said...its a mitigation tool. But its NOT a survival tool. Mitigation helps with survival, but like all other such tools, its not something that you treat as reliable or depend upon. You tend to take less damage while it is active, which is good, but if you are trying to avoid death you use something else.

The end result is that you hopefully survive having taken less damage for the healers to heal. Damage mitigation which leads onto less healing and imporved longevity for healers. But if you don't block, or do so rarely, then its no big loss. The next usage will hopefully make up for it.

EJL

[Deleted]

I'd rather have avoidance cap for 1/3 of the fight. The question is, is it said that it will be off the GCD? The old Holy Shield wasn't, it was a part of the 969 rotation, and I recall Blizzard mentioned something about Prot Paladin rotation in 4.2.

[Deleted]

I'd rather have avoidance cap for 1/3 of the fight. The question is, is it said that it will be off the GCD? The old Holy Shield wasn't, it was a part of the 969 rotation, and I recall Blizzard mentioned something about Prot Paladin rotation in 4.2.

It won't effect combat table coverage, it increases the amount you block by 20% as opposed to increasing your chance to block.

[Deleted]

Long post

Alright fine, it's a "mitigation tool that helps with survival". I'm rather confused about how that's any different from a survival tool, one could pose a similar argument about DP or even GotAK. But have it your way, we'll use the fancy wording. We can argue semantics all day long but my whole point was that macro and forget is NOT the best way to utilize the ability. That's the lazy way to only get part of the potential benefit, almost every single boss in the game has moments or phases where they don't hit as hard or at all so macroing it into say, Crusader Strike, would inevitably activate it at a bad time. Macroing it into an existing CD like DP seems feasable, but personally I'll also have an extra button cleared on my bars just for HS alone for all the situations where I want to use it by itself.

[zealous]

I've already voiced my opinion on the matter in the "protection in 4.2" thread, but I think it's worth repeating:

I consider the new HS a very badly designed spell. The 30 sec cooldown greatly gimps it, preventing efficient use.

It's too long for constant upkeep, unlike the WotLK version.

It's too short for a serious mitigation cooldown aka an "oh sh!t" mechanic.

It's long enough for the activation to coincide regularly with add switches and movement, rendering it often useless.

For full efficiency u need to have some specifically written software analyzing the boss fight and telling you when to use it and when to save it (connect your laptops to the internet folks, it's time to look like we're launch space shuttles while raiding!).

And:

a more dynamic rotation

?

Lol, gimme a break.

It won't break the class/spec, but it's not quality design either.

[Talen]

Alright fine, it's a "mitigation tool that helps with survival". I'm rather confused about how that's any different from a survival tool

I'm saying its not what people commonly term a "survival CD".

I'm further clarifying that by stating that it isn't actually required for survival. Unless Blizzard mess up, there should be no phase in the game that you cannot survive by ignoring this tool. Why? Because you cannot design encounters based on coin flips for tank survival.

There WILL be times when this ability won't block a thing. Just as there will be times when it does save you. Thats the problem with RNG.

No, the real effect of this spell won't matter over short fights. You could ignore it and it likely won't matter to any great degree. As I said, because it is RNG, it aids mitigation....the damage you take...rather than survival...the ability to live through certain phases of a fight. Its advantage is that, over the course of an entire fight, you'll take less damage with it than without it. You'll require less healing. Your healers mana will be extended.

one could pose a similar argument about DP or even GotAK.

No. Those are powerful survival CDs. Those aid survival because they don't rely on RNG. You use them and they will help. You use HS and it may or may not have any effect. Thats the difference...reliability. You can't use HS in a situation where you want to survive. It might work. It might not. With DP or GAnK....they WILL work. You can use HS to augment them...but you can't rely on it by itself. If you do, you're risking your survival and a wipe on a coin toss.

my whole point was that macro and forget is NOT the best way to utilize the ability.

Thats your opinion.

That's the lazy way to only get part of the potential benefit, almost every single boss in the game has moments or phases where they don't hit as hard or at all so macroing it into say, Crusader Strike, would inevitably activate it at a bad time.

Yes. And by saving it for certain phases, you are ensuring there are times when it COULD be active and mitigating damage and isn't. Further, at these times you are talking about, when you say HS should be used, the odds are good that you'll be using DP or a similar tool...which means HShield is mitigating even less damage. And of course, simple macroing will still ensure some coverage of those big hit phases.

All of these factors eat into the amount of damage the intelligent use of HS mitigates over simple macroing, reducing it...potentially by a large amount.

So...if by macroing it I mitigate 100k damage over the course of a fight but I can save 250k by "intelligent" use, then its obvious which one is better.
However, if I can save 100k through the use of a macro, and 105k through the use of intelligent timing....then it becomes much, much harder to justify not macroing it.

The spell is simply badly designed....its too unreliable to be useful for survival. And if you can't rely on it, then you need to be able to survive any reasonable time frame without using it. And if thats the case, then you need to ask...if the tank doesn't need to use it to survive those big heavy hitting phases, who does it really benefit?

It benefits the tanks only by ensuring healers don't run out of mana too soon. Its a benefit that is measured over the course of an entire fight and not just one or two minutes worth.

That means its important to use, but also that it becomes less useful as healers gear up. And it means that whats important is not being able to block the big hits once every so often...its what tactic or usage allows it to block the most damage over the course of an entire fight.

EJL

[Deleted]

The problem with arguing that macroing Holy Shield to all abilities is still going to be worth it is much like stating that it is worth using your lay on hands cooldown when you have lost 1/3 health.

You can use guardian of ancient kings every 3 minutes regardless of what is currently happening, sure it will reduce your damage taken but not in the most effective way possible.

[Deleted]

Thats your opinion.

No, that's a fact. Leaving your mitigation automated will never ever be as optimal as doing it yourself. Yes there will be some fights where the optimal thing to do would be to use HS on CD, but then the perfect player would simply use HS every 30 seconds, not macro it and let it use itself. I actually cannot think of a boss that doesn't stop his/her swing timer at least a few times during a fight, you obviously wouldn't want your HS to self activate during those times. The most I can see myself doing is macroing it into a rotation on fights where I'm simply not good enough to multi-task all of my other responsibilities and still optimize HS, if they ever make such a fight.

And I'm done arguing the whole semantics of what is "survival" and what is "mitigation that helps with survival". Something that makes me block for 50% instead of 30% sure as hell helps me live easier no matter how we present the argument on paper. Yeah maybe I use it and I don't block and then I die, do I blame HS then or do I blame the healers who let me get to the point of 1-shot? I've died with DP up plenty of times as well. At the end of the day in the real (virtual) world when I'm tanking 5 hard hitting constructs in P3 of Nef and I use HS for those 10 seconds you can bet your ass I'll be easier to heal. When I do Heroic Magmaw and I chain HS->DP->AD it won't be to conserve healers' mana, it'll be so I can not die.

I'm still not a huge fan of this new HS, I would have preferred it at 20/60 rather than 10/30 and even then there are fights where it's just plain worse than the old HS no matter what you do with it. But it will give me something extra to press and make me easier to heal than lazier paladins who don't use the ability to its max potential, so in that regard at least I don't mind it.

[Deleted]

As far as i know, they wanted, us, Paladins to Block more then Warriors and a more steady amount while warriors occasionally would block double the amount. (Dev's visions of 4.0 changes) That was also why HS was 20%(or 15%, don't remember that good) before they nerfed to 10%.

But our Mastery now only increases Block chance while Warriors still have the Crit block.
And our Holy Shield increased the amount blocked from 30% to 40% to come on par with Warriors Mitigation.
The average Warrior has the same amount of block chance as an average Paladin. So i'd say we lose a 10% Mitigation for another cooldown. And its a Cooldown that increases our amount blocked and not Chance to Block. So its totally unreliable, in my opinion.

[Talen]

No, that's a fact. Leaving your mitigation automated will never ever be as optimal as doing it yourself.

No. Its your opinion. Until we can see what the fights are like on live, and analyse the typical benefit of each phase, you cannot state that the best way to sue HS will be "intelligently" as opposed to when its Off CD.

I actually cannot think of a boss that doesn't stop his/her swing timer at least a few times during a fight, you obviously wouldn't want your HS to self activate during those times.

I'm actually saying it largely doesn't matter. The benefit of HS isn't going to be seen over seconds. Its going to be felt over minutes. The question is whether the impact of HS via an intelligent usage system is going to be large enough over simple spamming that its actually with using intelligently.

IF your healers have enough mana for the fight...then you may as well spam it.
IF the difference between intelligent usage and spamming it are small, you may as well spam it.

And I'm done arguing the whole semantics of what is "survival" and what is "mitigation that helps with survival". Something that makes me block for 50% instead of 30% sure as hell helps me live easier no matter how we present the argument on paper. Yeah maybe I use it and I don't block and then I die, do I blame HS then or do I blame the healers who let me get to the point of 1-shot?

The problem is that HS ***ISN'T*** reliable. If you are going to die....if you need to live through the next phase...HS WON'T be a tool you reach for. Noyt unless you've messed up and its all you have. No...you'll use GAnK. Or DP. Or AD.

Something reliable that you know WILL help you survive.

HS is not that survival CD. And treating it as such is a mistake that will only lead to wipes.

What it is...is Block. And its usefulness is felt in the same situation the block mechanic used for. Mitigating damage so your healers don't run out of mana during a fight. Take any phase of the game, and you should be able to survive without touching HS. It'll help, but it won't ever be necessary.

EJL

[Deleted]

Maybe it better to give HS its 8 charges back, So you have 8 blocks an amount of block increased by 20% for 30 secs. That would be a better solution to the 10 seconds. Since our avoidance(dodge/parry) will still come into play.