Holy Pally Crit Advantages

[Bostonian]

Hello there,
I was theory-crafting with some people over coffee the other day about the changes to Crit. I would like to say that I do like what they are doing to Crit (for healers) and Mastery (for holy pallys), but I won't be stacking Mastery. I will take upgrades with Mastery on it, but just reforge it. So having a little mastery is nice. Now after theory-crafting, we discovered a way to push Crit up on priority.

Hypothesis:
The "most common" stat priority is: Intel >Spirit > Haste > Crit > Mastery. We were trying to find away to make crit work. After analyzing things, we discovered that 12.5% haste is enough for us. With all the perks that holy pallys have getting their spell cast time reduced, 12.5% seems to be enough for us in raids (as we work together as a team with other healers). Haste is a great stat, but we going to treat it sort of like "hit" raiting, where once you have enough, you go to the next stat. Revised:; Intellect > Spirit >Haste to 12.5% then Crit > Mastery.

Theory-Crafting a "way to raise Crit%" and a "Possible Why":
Lets take my pally for example.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hadin/advanced
Yesterday (Before the patch) I changed some things.I had 1500 haste and reduced it to 1244 - 12.65% (on my holy pally). I was able to get my Crit from 810 to 1060 (17%).So my goal is to get Firelands gear with Intel, Spirit & Haste or Intel, Spirit & Crit. I will take upgrades with mastery and reforge, because I want to keep Mastery rating at 10 (406 rating), which ads a 15% absorbtion shield. Thats not a priority though.Getting my Crit high is!! To do so, once I have/maintain Haste at 12.5%, I need to a times reforge some haste into Crit.

Here's a possible why:
The new Crit benefit will work well in conjunction with Mastery....If my Divine Light heals for 23k and it Crits, it now heals for double -- 46k. An absorbtion shield of 15% (using my pallys stats) would be 6900. The higher your Crit raiting is, the more of a chance you will have to Crit, but if your Crit rating is lower than Mastery and you are not Criting as much then the Mastery benefit is almost worthless. If your Divine Light heals for 23k and lets say your mastery does a 20% absorbtion shield (because you put it above Crit as a priority), your shield is only 3450. I rather have a higher chance to throw out 46k heals with shield of 6900, then not Criting- throwing out a heal of 23k with a shield of 3450. Crit is what significantly impacts our mastery now, without stacking mastery.

How to achieve more Crit:
Crit has many advantages now, that I am going to give it a try, but the only way I can do so, is to "hold back a little on the haste." I know I am a great healer regardless of how I stat myself, but the only way I can see how to increase my Crit is to put a limit on haste. I refuse to go lower than 12.5%. When I get newer gear, my haste could potentially go up. So once I get my haste to 12.5%, things will get reforged to Crit. (Intellect > Spirit > Haste to 12.5% then Crit > Mastery).

Changes to Tree because of Crit changes:
Because I am raising the importance of Crit, I needed to slightly change my tree. Crit already helped us with Infusion of Light (reduces cast time) and Conviction (increases healing), but now it will also double our heals (for all healers), and make Mastery better for holy pallys without having to stack Mastery. I have always liked one of Simca's prefer-specs, the 31/3/7. I purposely do 7 pts in Ret tree because I like the 15% speed walking and extra oppurtuinitys to gain holy power, and increase the healing of Holy Shock. The only thing I am changing is- taking 2 pts out of Divinity and putting them in Eternal Glory. With Word of Glory being buffed by 30%, I will probably use it more. And when it Crits (and it will with great Crit%), it's a huge free heal and great for tank healing. I still prefer LoD in 25 mans over WoG, but WoG has its times when it's useful.

I hope some people agree. And I know a lot of people will disagree. But I just wanted to get my opinion out there about raising the value of Crit on our Priority. I look forward to reading people's responses on what they think, whether it's something similar, something different, or to keep everything the same.

[Deleted]

/facepalm
lord

[Simca]

I read the gist of your post before you started to fix it and I mostly disagree. Haste is not good because of the 12.5% Holy Radiance point. That's just a bonus. Even in 10-man fights with almost 0 use for Holy Radiance, Haste is still superior to Crit. It's just a flat out better throughput stat currently.

Crit got buffed, but Mastery was better than Crit in 4.1 (even though a lot of people didn't know it). Now they're about even.

The current theorycrafting puts our stat priority at:
Int > Spirit > Haste > Crit = Mastery

[Bostonian]

Thanks Simca.... The original post had lots of /> breaks in it, when I submitted it; I must have had internet lag or something.

I said the "most common" stat was- Int > Spirit > Haste > Crit > Mastery (even though like you said people didn't know Mastery was a little better than crit).

Yes Haste is great for holy radiance, but a lot of Holy Radiance goes to overheal, because Resto Shamans and Holy Priests usually use their AOE heals the same time as we do, during a great need for lots of AOE heals. And when it doesn't go to overheal, there's not a great need to get everyone topped off to 100% either.

I just think because Crit significantly impacts our Mastery now, and Crit was buffed for all healers, that there needs to be a way to raise our Crit % where we are Criting a lot. If you don't think we should stop haste after 12.5%, what would you suggest to do to get crit up closet to 17-20%??

---------- Post added 2011-06-28 at 02:55 PM ----------

I forgot to mention- the reason we chose 12.5% for haste, is that's how much you need to get your divine light down to 2 sec cast time without procs.

[Cexecution]

While its easy to get excited about the buffs to crit and our mastery, the fact is haste is still the best throughput stat. Not stacking it because one of your spells is at a certain cast time that can still be reduced doesn't really make any sort of sense. You're free to develop your own play style of course, but the value of haste is not decreasing because your divine lights are under 2 seconds.

[Nedralixx]

If the fight has moderate raid damage and big tank damage mastery goes atop. If you have big aoe damage, crit will prevail because it affects HR and LoD. Making things simpler, would be going for crit over mastery because it affects more spells/situations. If you want to min max though you'll need to reforge before every encounter.

[Deleted]

I don't understand why you feel the need to get your crit to x% just because it got buffed. You don't necessarily go "Crit got buffed, I gotta get more crit". What you need to ask yourself is "Crit got buffed, is it better than haste now?". To put simply, it isn't. As Simca put it, haste is still the better throughput stat. So what do you do after 12.5% haste? You get more haste, and then you keep getting more haste because haste continues to be the better stat for getting more heal per second out there.

Another part of your argument that you and a lot of people don't quite get is that just because crits=higher mastery shield doesn't give any sort of inherent advantage to crit. Haste increases the amount of shields you get as well, but because haste is a better throughput stat it will actually give you more bang for your buck in terms of placing shields. You might have had a little bit of a point to make before when shields didn't stack, so large amounts of haste could make you do consecutive casts which don't place a shield. But they stack now so haste is a better heal per second and a better shield per second stat than crit.

Finally to address one last thing, try not to get too fixated on big numbers. Like this quote from your post:

I rather have a higher chance to throw out 46k heals with shield of 6900, then not Criting- throwing out a heal of 23k with a shield of 3450

There is no actual theorycrafting or math behind this sort of thinking. You're basically going "ohh big number, i like". It's hard for me to articulate the point I'm trying to make here, but basically look at the stats as a whole and how they will affect you throughout the course of the fight. Don't put a big number next to a little number, ask yourself on average how much will this stat benefit me. The answer is haste benefits you the most (but also costs you the most mana, which we put up with) and then crit and mastery are about tied for 2nd place.

[Bostonian]

are you saying to forget spirit?

don't we all look at #s and make assumptions? You use #s for data in other posts.

do you play a holy pally?

In BC, we wanted to get our crit to over 30%. Well crit gave us mana back, but even still, we had the best 1:1 heals. My guild likes to have pallys as tank healers still, and gets irritated when they see my heals per sec up (and over heal up) because I am throwing out a lot of group heals, when there are other healers to do so. So if I am to be an efficient Tank healer (as my guild has assigned me to be), I need to figure out a way to be effective for Firelands. So I sat down with some people, and we were thinking to try out geting crit up to 17-20% if possible because of the new buff.

[thoukaia]

The current theorycrafting puts our stat priority at:
Int > Spirit > Haste > Crit = Mastery

I honestly dont think thats the case. Crit was already better, even if slightly, than mastery before 4.2. Now crit receives a decent buff while Mastery receives a minor one, wouldnt logic indicate that Crit definitely trumps Mastery?

Now regarding crit and haste, they're not really comparable. Haste is HPS at the cost of mana, while crit is less HPS, but free. It all comes down to luck and situation. It's like saying that a standard tower-PC is better than a laptop. Well yeah, if computing power is what you need, then its better, but the laptop has its own power source and is movable.

Terrible analogies aside, i'm fairly confident that a proper stat priority is Int >> Spirit > Haste/Crit interchangeable depending on fight and playstyle >> Mastery

[Nillo]

1) I honestly dont think thats the case. Crit was already better, even if slightly, than mastery before 4.2. Now crit receives a decent buff while Mastery receives a minor one, wouldnt logic indicate that Crit definitely trumps Mastery?

2) Now regarding crit and haste, they're not really comparable. Haste is HPS at the cost of mana, while crit is less HPS, but free. It all comes down to luck and situation. It's like saying that a standard tower-PC is better than a laptop. Well yeah, if computing power is what you need, then its better, but the laptop has its own power source and is movable.

3) Terrible analogies aside, i'm fairly confident that a proper stat priority is Int >> Spirit > Haste/Crit interchangeable depending on fight and playstyle >> Mastery

1) I don't think either of those buffs are really buffs to the stat itself : the crit buff works best with fast spells which is only HR for us and the Mastery buff is more a buff to haste because it finally works together instead of against the mastery.
Either way - crit is more of a raid healing stat, because it benefits HR and LoD more, while mastery is more of a tank healing stats because it's duration just doesn't last long enough for most raid aoes and neither of them is ever going to trump haste.

2) Actually I'd say unless they buff crit and mastery A LOL neither of them is ever going to get close to haste just because getting heals out in time is usually way more important than a random hps increase or a shield that just doesn't work most of the time.

3) for me it'll be Int >>>> spirit > haste >> crit > mastery

[Bostonian]

I have to agree with thoukaia, that it's Intel > Spirit > Haste / Crit *> Mastery

*Interchangeably depending on play style or situation; Or even, Haste until you feel that you got enough then reforge to Crit.
This is sort of what I said in my first post.

In Firelands today my DLs were awesome with my Crits which helped keep tank alive.

---------- Post added 2011-06-28 at 11:21 PM ----------

additionally, my Holy Shock crit significantly more times than before having more crit than before.... which means more infusion of lights.... which means more reduce spell cast by 1.5 for FoL, HL, and DL.

There has to be some type of closeness in value with haste and crit. i really think once u get haste to your liking, you need to really go crit.

intel> spirit > haste until necessary then Crit > mastery

[Simca]

I honestly dont think thats the case. Crit was already better, even if slightly, than mastery before 4.2. Now crit receives a decent buff while Mastery receives a minor one, wouldnt logic indicate that Crit definitely trumps Mastery?

Now regarding crit and haste, they're not really comparable. Haste is HPS at the cost of mana, while crit is less HPS, but free. It all comes down to luck and situation. It's like saying that a standard tower-PC is better than a laptop. Well yeah, if computing power is what you need, then its better, but the laptop has its own power source and is movable.

Terrible analogies aside, i'm fairly confident that a proper stat priority is Int >> Spirit > Haste/Crit interchangeable depending on fight and playstyle >> Mastery

Mastery was slightly better than Crit in most situations (including heavy beacon situations) after 4.1. Now that Crit is buffed in 4.2 though, Crit is on par (see below)

Crit rarely beats Haste though, even in an HR-less priority setup. More of the well known posters on EJ perfer Crit to Mastery in 4.2, but if you aren't relying on the Beacon much or using HR much, Mastery is better.

I simplified it down to Int > Spirit > Haste > Crit = Mastery, although personally I'm going to be gearing Crit over Mastery if I have the chance. I'm not going to say "OMG MASTERY PIECE THROW IT AWAY" though, I'll take any ilvl upgrade, even those with Mastery.

I have to agree with thoukaia, that it's Intel > Spirit > Haste / Crit *> Mastery

*Interchangeably depending on play style or situation; Or even, Haste until you feel that you got enough then reforge to Crit.
This is sort of what I said in my first post.

In Firelands today my DLs were awesome with my Crits which helped keep tank alive.

---------- Post added 2011-06-28 at 11:21 PM ----------

additionally, my Holy Shock crit significantly more times than before having more crit than before.... which means more infusion of lights.... which means more reduce spell cast by 1.5 for FoL, HL, and DL.

There has to be some type of closeness in value with haste and crit. i really think once u get haste to your liking, you need to really go crit.

intel> spirit > haste until necessary then Crit > mastery

Crit won't become better than Haste until you're GCD capped. That isn't going to happen this tier as far as I know. I guess it is possible with Bloodlust in full heroic Firelands gear, so that will start to diminish the value of Haste, but for the foreseeable future, Haste > Crit.

Next tier it is possible you could see people leaning towards Crit after GCD cap.

[Bostonian]

Simca, I understand what you are saying and I see why Haste is so important and I see that you love Holy Radiance (as we all do).

But Crit is defiantly up and coming now...

Crit:
1) Makes yours heals double when they crit (all healers).
2) Because of the larger crit heal your absorbtion shield from mastery is bigger .
3) **High % of crit = increases the amount of times your Holy Shock will crit.
4) When your Holy Shock crits, your HL, DL are reduced by 1.5 secs, and FoL is instant.
5) **LoD heals are going to be Insane with Crit now. For example if mine heal for 9k, it would crit for 13k; now it will Crit for 18k. And they will crit more often with a higher % of Crit.
6) HR tics will crit more often with a higher % of Crit.

Simca, I know you love LoD. You will love it more if it Crits more often. We know you love HR and will probably love it more when the tics crit more often. Crit is going to make our AOE healing very powerful, not just our 1:1.

People need to keep in mind, there is not one healer in a raid. You don't need to be the one to heal up everyone. The farthest/quickest progressed guild's-healers work together and a holy pally is not expected to heal up the whole raid asap.

My Divine Lights were criting for over 50k in Firelands tonight. And I crit often with close to 20% crit. I noticed a difference between 20% crit raid buffed vs 13%. Not sure why the 7% made that big of a difference but it did.

I am not convinced that CGD from haste makes haste significantly better than Crit. Might HPS were higher in Firelands even though I stopped reforging haste after 12.5% and went the Crit route. There are just so many grand reasons for wanting Crit now.

Well if people still want to go incredibly high with haste, I am sure you are right about the next patch with people going the Crit Route.

[Jin84]

While it is true that Haste is the top priority for Pallies right now, but think about how fast you will oom in a BIS haste set, especially when the fight goes to hell. You have to make sure your mana pool doesn't get blown away in the BIS set. Also because of the insane amounts of "infusion of light" procs, I think any haste higher that a certain cap can get useless pretty quickly after the plateau. You have an instant FOL to save raiders. Your DL casts in 1.5 like maybe 1 time for every 6 DL you spam, provided your Holy Shock is on cd the whole time.

I guess I'll probably value crit more than mastery, as mastery is still a bonus stat.

[Bostonian]

Cool... What haste % or number do you think is necessary before haste kind of goes almost overkill. I downed my haste from 1500 to 1200 (12.65%). Which allows my DL to be a 2 second cast time with judgement up. 2.22 second cast time without judgement. My Crit is 17% and my holy shocks are criting a lot more (along with other spells), than when my crit was at 11.75%. I Am noticing the Infusion of Light procing a lot more too. this is making tank healing more efficient: big crit heals, bigger shield, reduced spell cast by 1.5 sec. With the better gear now, I am sure I can get my haste past 12.5% and my Crit past 17%.... But for the sake of so many crit advantages, I sacrificed some haste for more crit to get my crit from 11.75 to 17%. Ideally I would like my Crit to be 20% before buffs. I also predict by the end of this patch, you'll see more holy pallys wanting Crit to 20% or more with the new gear.

***

I had stated a change in my spec in my first post, putting 2 pts into eternal glory to make it have a 30% chance to not consume holy power. I am going back to a full 3/3 in Divinity. I don't find that the 30% chance is enough for me. I will use WoG on tank when necessary since its 30% stronger, but I still prefer LoD as 50% of that goes back to the beacon target, and with my high crit %, my LoD crits a lot more. So I say WoG is still very situation, so I could care less that I wont get to use it directly a second time. I do love how much it heals when it crits. I still think though 2 pts in eternal glory is good for pvp. I just like 3/3 in Divinity better for raiding. 31/3/7.

[Tatsu]

There is no point in this tier where haste becomes overkill. I'm at 1716 haste and 656 crit. Crit still suffers from a poor conversion rate. Meaning it takes more points to raise it 1% than haste. Haste is higher hps. You can caste more spells per minute with more haste. It is not for the extra ticks of hr, though that is an added bonus. Rather the increased spells cast. As you get higher haste you can cast more holy lights and have to use less divine lights which will reduce your mana used. I don't understand why you would want slower spells but have a chance to crit. Many of the times the crit will be wasted as an overheal. While you could have saved your mana and cast more smaller faster heals.

[Bostonian]

With 12.5% haste and your judgements, your DL /HL (which have same cast time) are a low enough for cast time....There are other healers in the raid besides us pallys, so we don't need to be the first one to hit each and every target... Yes, I agree more than haste than 12.5% is better, but anything more than 16% haste I would say is depriving yourself of other useful stats. I say 1200 haste minimum and With the new gear holy pallys should be looking to get close to 20% crit chance, because the last two bosses in fire lands hit like a truck. With all the perks of Crit now that I listed, Pallys should want to be entering Firelands with 17% crit. Buffs and stuff will get you above 17%. And when you get to 20% with gear, buffs and stuff will get you past 20%. Firelands has brought back a 'Burning Crusade raid boss feeling,' in which you really need to work closely with your other healers, and not just let it be a free for all. In BC you did not need (and probably didn't have) all this haste.
You are right, are Crit doesnt scale well, where as in BC we were around 35% crit. But in this expansion 35% crit would be OP. I think our next teir (after Firelands) would allow us to get close to maybe 30%.

I am telling you, you will love seeing your heals Crit much more if you get your crit higher than 656. Get it to above 1000.

[Nillo]

Dude your post(s) is(are) so full of:
Wall of text (10+ lines of text without paragraphs - seriously?)
Random numbers (why 20% crit? 0 reason to go for that specific value)
Random assumptions (like you not needing haste because there are other healers...)


Seriously both maths (you need more crit rating for 1% of crit than you need haste) and common sense still dictate that haste is way better than crit. (faster heals >> random big heals that might go to overheal)

[Korth]

Dude your post(s) is(are) so full of:
Wall of text (10+ lines of text without paragraphs - seriously?)
Random numbers (why 20% crit? 0 reason to go for that specific value)
Random assumptions (like you not needing haste because there are other healers...)


Seriously both maths (you need more crit rating for 1% of crit than you need haste) and common sense still dictate that haste is way better than crit. (faster heals >> random big heals that might go to overheal)

This.

/10char

[Bostonian]

Dude your post(s) is(are) so full of:
Wall of text (10+ lines of text without paragraphs - seriously?)
Random numbers (why 20% crit? 0 reason to go for that specific value)
Random assumptions (like you not needing haste because there are other healers...)

Seriously both maths (you need more crit rating for 1% of crit than you need haste) and common sense still dictate that haste is way better than crit. (faster heals >> random big heals that might go to overheal)

LOL.
1) Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you should be condescending... Most of "your" posts on these forums are "you" disagreeing with what anyone posts. Must be nice to have the time. Someone sneezes and you probably reply back "I disagree, stop with the Wall of texts 10+ lines please." See I can be just as condescending.

2a) These are not assumptions I have made. As I said in my first post, I am trying something new because me (along with many others) feel that Crit will eventually be equal or surpass haste (Simca even believes that potentially the next set of tier after Firelands, Crit will be equal or even surpass Haste)...

2b )And the # values are just estimates and/or goals. I am saying haste is better than crit, but an excellent healer will be fine with a minimum of 12.5% haste. If you can read - I listed 6 solid reasons why we need to get our crit up.

3) Wall of tests vs paragraphs? And your point? Just being rude again I see? My first post was well written and gave room for discussion. And throughout this thread people have been discussing/ giving their opinion. If all you got is snide remarks I suggest you take your posts elsewhere because we don't have the time or patience for it.