problems with Dual wield Frost?

[Deleted]

Im a person that enjoys researching alternative builds and setups and not just to go with the flow, however, sometimes one spec just puts out more dps, and the UH presence haste/mastery build seems to do just that. I must say I'm hardly ever starved for RP on my DK, and being a belf (with pretty hair) I can use arcane torrent to get in an extra frost strike when it does happen.

[Radiss]

yes. the answer is you are doing it wrong even when i was haste forged.. I have never had a problem with DW frost. i can put out roughly 24-25k with 363 gear level and only roughly 15 seconds of downtime in a boss fight. I also, however, am geared for Mastery/crit vs Haste/mastery. That may also be part of the difference (primarily since the new gear setup for FL revolves around that gear setup)

Do not listen to this person. If you do not gear for haste as a priority over mastery then you gimping yourself, plain and simple.

[Drunkenvalley]

so what your saying is that based on old knowledge that obviously never changes that your claim is better? so you see parses on Mastery/crit vs Haste/mastery in firelands in the thousands now? like i said i wasnt trying to provoke you i was interested in seeing your idea in writing vs your accusations.

This was only BARELY true pre 4.2 by roughly 500 dps out of 21k - 22k meaning ~2% which is theoretical.

show me what you are referring to in THIS content patch. Please.

I'm sorry, I can't seem to recall any reason that would suggest any new knowledge would be required.

Would you kindly remind me?

[Barael]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...urava/advanced

This DK currently has the best DK parse in the world on Baelroc, which is arguably the "Patchwerk" of the tier. This parse is also the 9th best parse overall for an individual player on the fight.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...leroc/10N/dps/

This player reforges to haste and mastery.

Erm. Murava has 2069 mastery and 1053 haste, with 630 points reforged to mastery and 160 points reforged to haste. The haste reforges come from reforging excess hit on pieces that already have mastery (so mastery reforge isn't an option) and apparently bringing down the final mastery value to just over 19.5 (since anything above that and below 20 would go to waste).
So what's actually true is that the current top frost DK dps runs a very mastery-heavy setup with rather minimal haste. This also makes it fairly questionable that Murava uses Unholy Presence since it would make fairly little sense given his stat allocation.
You're of course still free to argue that UP strictly dominates FP, but the evidence you present doesn't actually support your case.

[Thiocyanide]

Erm. Murava has 2069 mastery and 1053 haste, with 630 points reforged to mastery and 160 points reforged to haste. The haste reforges come from reforging excess hit on pieces that already have mastery (so mastery reforge isn't an option) and apparently bringing down the final mastery value to just over 19.5 (since anything above that and below 20 would go to waste).
So what's actually true is that the current top frost DK dps runs a very mastery-heavy setup with rather minimal haste. This also makes it fairly questionable that Murava uses Unholy Presence since it would make fairly little sense given his stat allocation.
You're of course still free to argue that UP strictly dominates FP, but the evidence you present doesn't actually support your case.

Mastery>Haste build still using UP. You can go into the Expressions editor on his parse and check the timestamps on his Obliterate casts, they're roughly exactly one second apart.

I'll have to try Mastery > Haste to see if that yields higher DPS for me, but there is still absolutely no information to suggest FP would be better. Regardless of your haste value there is simply no way you would have the globals.

EDIT: Caulk's parse is a bit down on that ranking and he does Haste > Mastery. Doesn't look like there's much difference, if any.

[Barael]

You can go into the Expressions editor on his parse and check the timestamps on his Obliterate casts, they're roughly exactly one second apart.

Fair enough.

[Kronik85]

Erm. Murava has 2069 mastery and 1053 haste, with 630 points reforged to mastery and 160 points reforged to haste. The haste reforges come from reforging excess hit on pieces that already have mastery (so mastery reforge isn't an option) and apparently bringing down the final mastery value to just over 19.5 (since anything above that and below 20 would go to waste).
So what's actually true is that the current top frost DK dps runs a very mastery-heavy setup with rather minimal haste. This also makes it fairly questionable that Murava uses Unholy Presence since it would make fairly little sense given his stat allocation.
You're of course still free to argue that UP strictly dominates FP, but the evidence you present doesn't actually support your case.

Lavawalker on boots suggests FP. I can see why you might want to reforge Mastery>Haste>Crit, but Mastery>Crit>Haste only makes sense if their is a Haste cap. What do you mean when your talking about anything Mastery over 20 going to waste? Do you mean that there is some magical break point in Mastery where it suddenly becomes awful, or do you just mean trying to push Mastery higher would require some bad reforges? If you look at the Massacre Treads they have Mastery Reforged into Haste, so either this player has it in there head that you need around 8% Haste and can then focus on Mastery and maybe Crit, or that they forgot to reforge their shoes......

The idea of a Haste cap was discussed in 4.0 theorycrafting I think (it was in Consider's old Frost topic, could be hard to find now), when I was running round in 346 I tried to run 8% Haste since it meant less down time, without any Haste I find it impossible to believe you only have 4-5 secs downtime in a 6 minute fight, based on my own experience of DW Frost and Mastery stacking in 4.0.

The onus is definately on the Mastery/FP camp to prove it's superior since Haste/UP is the established play style, it's good to see discussion about this though and I'm certainly up for giving it a go when I'm able.

/edit: Looking at the expressions editor also shows they were running a build with Chillblains, probably not the biggest mistake to assume other things that we can see on the armory now were different at the time of the parse.

/edit2: Grammar.

[Barael]

What do you mean when your talking about anything Mastery over 20 going to waste?

What I meant was that 19.99 Mastery is effectively the same as 19.50, so if you can't get 20.0 Mastery, you'll want to reforge those .49 Mastery away. Which is more or less what Murava seems to have done.

[Drunkenvalley]

I seem to recall a blue specifically debunking that myth?

[sharteel]

What do you mean when your talking about anything Mastery over 20 going to waste? Do you mean that there is some magical break point in Mastery where it suddenly becomes awful, or do you just mean trying to push Mastery higher would require some bad reforges? If you look at the Massacre Treads they have Mastery Reforged into Haste, so either this player has it in there head that you need around 8% Haste and can then focus on Mastery and maybe Crit, or that they forgot to reforge their shoes......

I think he means that the extra 76 mastery from boots would put him at like 19.9 mastery, instead of pushing him all the way to 20 for the extra damage

[Kronik85]

What I meant was that 19.99 Mastery is effectively the same as 19.50, so if you can't get 20.0 Mastery, you'll want to reforge those .49 Mastery away. Which is more or less what Murava seems to have done.

Definately not true.....or at least 99% certain that's not true. if you have 19.99 Mastery your going to be doing 39.98% extra frost damage, if you have 19.5 Mastery your going to do 39% extra frost damage. All stats scale per point, there aren't any magic numbers except Hit and Expertise caps, and even those are to some extent artifical (we decide how much Hit/Expertise to get). If you don't believe me then just think about it logically, why would every stat bar Mastery scale per point?

/edit: Random capitals removed.

[Thiocyanide]

Lavawalker on boots suggests FP. I can see why you might want to reforge Mastery>Haste>Crit, but Mastery>Crit>Haste only makes sense if their is a Haste cap. What do you mean when your talking about anything Mastery over 20 going to waste? Do you mean that there is some magical break point in Mastery where it suddenly becomes awful, or do you just mean trying to push Mastery higher would require some bad reforges? If you look at the Massacre Treads they have Mastery Reforged into Haste, so either this player has it in there head that you need around 8% Haste and can then focus on Mastery and maybe Crit, or that they forgot to reforge their shoes......

The idea of a Haste cap was discussed in 4.0 theorycrafting I think (it was in Consider's old Frost topic, could be hard to find now), when I was running round in 346 I tried to run 8% Haste since it meant less down time, without any Haste I find it impossible to believe you only have 4-5 secs downtime in a 6 minute fight, based on my own experience of DW Frost and Mastery stacking in 4.0.

The onus is definately on the Mastery/FP camp to prove it's superior since Haste/UP is the established play style, it's good to see discussion about this though and I'm certainly up for giving it a go when I'm able.

/edit: Looking at the expressions editor also shows they were running a build with Chillblains, probably not the biggest mistake to assume other things that we can see on the armory now were different at the time of the parse.

/edit2: Grammar.

I run with Chilblains over IFP. It's a common build because IFP is absolutely worthless.

[burbon]

I run with Chilblains over IFP. It's a common build because IFP is absolutely worthless.

Lol no it's not. You still retain 4% more rp gen from all your abilities when you run in UP. While the value of that is slightly less than butchery point for point, it certainly provides value, whereas Chilblains provides exactly 0 dps gain and utility in only a few situations in the current tier.

[Wingwraith]

Lol no it's not. You still retain 4% more rp gen from all your abilities when you run in UP. While the value of that is slightly less than butchery point for point, it certainly provides value, whereas Chilblains provides exactly 0 dps gain and utility in only a few situations in the current tier.

You're absolutely right, it's not "worthless". But it is one of, if not the, least valuable talents if you need/want to run with Chilblains.

[Thiocyanide]

Lol no it's not. You still retain 4% more rp gen from all your abilities when you run in UP. While the value of that is slightly less than butchery point for point, it certainly provides value, whereas Chilblains provides exactly 0 dps gain and utility in only a few situations in the current tier.

It provides so little DPS as to be overshadowed by RNG (Crits, KM procs, Hurricane procs) on most parses, wheras Chilblains is amazing utility on many encounters.

The relative worth of the two is pretty astoundingly different.