Survival Hunter Guide (Updated for 5.4)

[glo]

Yet another trinket question.

I've just got the Rag trinket and I had the Hungerer laying around already. I feel like having the two of them together as Survival isn't... exactly a good idea, since it procs haste when Hungerer is procced. Would it be a good idea to use Fluid Death instead of Hungerer? FD shows it as a dps lost... but I'm still unsure.

Fluid Death is best in slot until heroic hungerer or stabilizer. You're seeing a dps loss most likely because you're not reforging the rest of your gear to account for the massive amount of hit you receive from fluid death.

[Deleted]

where on this site does it tell you how to do that?

How to do what?

[Maelstrom51]

Fluid Death is best in slot until heroic hungerer or stabilizer. You're seeing a dps loss most likely because you're not reforging the rest of your gear to account for the massive amount of hit you receive from fluid death.

FemaleDwarf is showing me a minor dps gain switching Fluid Death for normal Hungerer in my current gear set. Both sets using optimal reforges, of course.

Edit: Ignore this post. I was talking about my marksman spec and not paying attention to the thread I was posting in...

[Mr.Pineapple]

couple things:


2. Do not delay your ES for BA. If your BA comes off cd and you do not have 75+focus to shoot BA and ES when it comes off CD, wait for ES first and then use BA after when you do have enough focus. Why? Becuase ES might proc TotH and let you shoot BA anyway, but if you fire BA first and delay ES the extra focus from TotH will just be used on AS and you've lost DPS delayed ES.

BA procs TotH and LnL, if you end up starved for focus, popping a BA first will help get you back into a regular rotation much faster and be an increase in dps, a good exaple of this is the fight is ZG where the MF kills you over and over, cobra right away, SS, then BA, half the time you get a proc before you get capped again, otherwise you are waiting a good 10s before you get a BA off and inc zero lnl. if you pop up near the boss, explosive trap first instead. I've simmed on FD with BA above ES and gotten higher dps in certain gear setups. as for real world application depending on the boss in firelands this is also true (beth, alys).


4. When LnL procs you should use it like this when you are below 55 focus: ES>delay 0.1 sec>ES>CoS>ES

this will very often lead to capping, my latency is over 100ms so i can fire off all 3 back to back and get all 9 ticks. tested on dummies repeatedly.

5. If you have above 55 focus when LnL procs it should look like this: ES>delay 0.1sec>ES>AS>ES

more of the same, delaying the third ES is a dps loss.

6. If you are above 90 focus when LnL procs then it should look like this: ES>KC>ES>AS>ES

if you are above 80 this should be the rule.

also to note, procced ES can trigger TotH, so be ready to KC or AS anywhere above 60 focus.

otherwise, good guide.

would love to see a full list of trinkets from 391 to 359 (and some 346 if they are that good) trying to replace reg cyclone and i'm not sure how much better or worse some of my options are.

[Illana]

couple things:


2. Do not delay your ES for BA. If your BA comes off cd and you do not have 75+focus to shoot BA and ES when it comes off CD, wait for ES first and then use BA after when you do have enough focus. Why? Becuase ES might proc TotH and let you shoot BA anyway, but if you fire BA first and delay ES the extra focus from TotH will just be used on AS and you've lost DPS delayed ES.

BA procs TotH and LnL, if you end up starved for focus, popping a BA first will help get you back into a regular rotation much faster and be an increase in dps, a good exaple of this is the fight is ZG where the MF kills you over and over, cobra right away, SS, then BA, half the time you get a proc before you get capped again, otherwise you are waiting a good 10s before you get a BA off and inc zero lnl. if you pop up near the boss, explosive trap first instead. I've simmed on FD with BA above ES and gotten higher dps in certain gear setups. as for real world application depending on the boss in firelands this is also true (beth, alys).

Great catch with BA proccing ToTH, I was always under the impression it didn't. But that still doesn't solve the fact you are delaying ES, which in almost all cases is a DPS loss. I'll have to try again prioritising BA over ES but I can tell you now that I'm 95% sure it's a DPS loss.

Simming with "certain gearsets" sounds really dodgy to me. I'll have a look with my current gearset how it is.

4. When LnL procs you should use it like this when you are below 55 focus: ES>delay 0.1 sec>ES>CoS>ES

this will very often lead to capping, my latency is over 100ms so i can fire off all 3 back to back and get all 9 ticks. tested on dummies repeatedly.

5. If you have above 55 focus when LnL procs it should look like this: ES>delay 0.1sec>ES>AS>ES

more of the same, delaying the third ES is a dps loss.

6. If you are above 90 focus when LnL procs then it should look like this: ES>KC>ES>AS>ES

if you are above 80 this should be the rule.

also to note, procced ES can trigger TotH, so be ready to KC or AS anywhere above 60 focus.

This is your rule you made to account for your latency, I can tell you with 100% certainty if I shot all 3 ES without any delay I would clip.

would love to see a full list of trinkets from 391 to 359 (and some 346 if they are that good) trying to replace reg cyclone and i'm not sure how much better or worse some of my options are.

I'll work on that, was originally setting up a gear list for pre raid bis and stuff like that but with the gear changing every couple weeks it's just so damn useless >.>

[Bullettime]

Yeah...with moderate latency that might be possible to fire all 3 but if you have good to great latency (less than 100,) you need to GCD fill. ES *heartbeat* ES > GCD > ES or you'll clip.

[Mr.Pineapple]

Great catch with BA proccing ToTH, I was always under the impression it didn't. But that still doesn't solve the fact you are delaying ES, which in almost all cases is a DPS loss. I'll have to try again prioritising BA over ES but I can tell you now that I'm 95% sure it's a DPS loss.

Simming with "certain gearsets" sounds really dodgy to me. I'll have a look with my current gearset how it is.

not knowing a pretty major mechanic of our spec sounds a bit dodgy to me. But please, check it out for yourself. and by certain gear sets, i mean lower gear levels, still hit capped, haste capped etc. since the buff to BA, the amount of gear this works for has also increased to low/early firelands gear (~370lvl gear). anything past 370 and you'll have to sim, anything past 375 and then yes, ES>BA again. at that point there is enough crit (closing in on 40% raid buffed), and how it scales with each spell (namely due to the glyph) to make up the difference in dps. at higher levels of haste, the clipping will also be negated.

and yes, i do play my spec a tiny bit different to make up for my latency, but i also avoid clipping thnx to it. with 4pc i will likely be working in kc to more LnL procs.

[lolipopp]

Hello guys,
I want to hear you what you think about surv with heavy haste refordge ...around 2300haste and that at the cost of mastery mostly.
I remember how much better it felt playing surv with lots of haste and t114set bonus but just now i am able to spare a lot of haste and give it a try again . Next several raids i ll run this setup cuz it also fits well for MM when i have to switch (i dont like surv with 1250 haste).
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...skren/advanced

[Illana]

you'll notice minimal if any difference between 757 haste and 2300, you have to delay ES by at least 1 second to pull off the 1.5 sec CoS rotation and the DPS you can for more arcanes is just overshadowed like that.

At the moment I have too much haste on gear, I hope to get heroic kitty scythe at some point and maybe a beth shoulder with hit/crit so i can drop down to 800ish haste.

[Bullettime]

you'll notice minimal if any difference between 757 haste and 2300, you have to delay ES by at least 1 second to pull off the 1.5 sec CoS rotation and the DPS you can for more arcanes is just overshadowed like that.

At the moment I have too much haste on gear, I hope to get heroic kitty scythe at some point and maybe a beth shoulder with hit/crit so i can drop down to 800ish haste.

What's odd is that when doing sims on my gear, my best reforge result for Survival and even BM came from the same reforge and actually balancing this two stats, with a slight edge to Haste.

Not stating this is some universal or that it's correct, merely stating what I saw on a sim.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lettime/simple

Pretty sure more Mastery heavy would be better in a real scenario, but found it to be interesting nonetheless.

[Illana]

femaledwarf has always been funny in regards to simming how much haste is actually worth because it's assuming you stand still with no regards to movement or time where you cannot DPS the same target constantly.

At the moment I have just over 1k haste and it's simming for me that it's worth 3.3 EP per point in haste which is 0.3 off agility at 3.6

There's absolutely no way that could be right and I've checked the settings thoroughly and cannot see anywhere I've gone wrong, the simulated DPS (31.5k) seems about right for my gear.

[Bullettime]

femaledwarf has always been funny in regards to simming how much haste is actually worth because it's assuming you stand still with no regards to movement or time where you cannot DPS the same target constantly.

At the moment I have just over 1k haste and it's simming for me that it's worth 3.3 EP per point in haste which is 0.3 off agility at 3.6

There's absolutely no way that could be right and I've checked the settings thoroughly and cannot see anywhere I've gone wrong, the simulated DPS (31.5k) seems about right for my gear.

What I was looking at as well. Probably going to go more Mastery heavy in both specs since between plateaus but just found it to be an odd occurance that my highest DPS simmed for both BM AND Surv was when both stats were within 100 rating and not Haste dominant over Mastery, despite how great Haste sims.

[Illana]

Doing some simming recently in BiS gear and it seems that wild hunt 2/2 pulls out ahead by quite a bit. Did some testing on a dummy (yeah yeah i know) over 20million damage and it genuinely seems my cat is pulling around 50-100 more dps with 2/2 wild hunt.

I think it's because each separate part of the ES can proc sic'em if it crits and i noticed with 1/2 wild hunter my cat was focus capping at times like during LnL or a lucky string of 4set procs which i use on AS.

This got me thinking: it seems it's shifting the stat priority to similar to MMs now, since if we prioritise crit and THEN haste for survival, more crits and more 4set procs will mean more sic'em which translates to higher pet DPS and of course our overall DPS.

Going to test a haste centric build next week and see how that works out with 2/2 wild hunt.

Currenty I would say that 2/2 wild hunt starts becoming a DPS increase at around ilevel 380.

[Deleted]

Doing some simming recently in BiS gear and it seems that wild hunt 2/2 pulls out ahead by quite a bit. Did some testing on a dummy (yeah yeah i know) over 20million damage and it genuinely seems my cat is pulling around 50-100 more dps with 2/2 wild hunt.

I think it's because each separate part of the ES can proc sic'em if it crits and i noticed with 1/2 wild hunter my cat was focus capping at times like during LnL or a lucky string of 4set procs which i use on AS.

This got me thinking: it seems it's shifting the stat priority to similar to MMs now, since if we prioritise crit and THEN haste for survival, more crits and more 4set procs will mean more sic'em which translates to higher pet DPS and of course our overall DPS.

Going to test a haste centric build next week and see how that works out with 2/2 wild hunt.

Currenty I would say that 2/2 wild hunt starts becoming a DPS increase at around ilevel 380.

What did you find out? Im mostly interested in your testing about the haste, im currently going crit > mastery > haste. I cant figure out if i should keep doing what im doing, or if i should get going to a high haste build .... and im getting DI from the lock all the time.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eaper/advanced

[Sarevokcz]

4. When LnL procs you should use it like this when you are below 55 focus: ES>delay 0.1 sec>ES>CoS>ES

this will very often lead to capping, my latency is over 100ms so i can fire off all 3 back to back and get all 9 ticks. tested on dummies repeatedly.

5. If you have above 55 focus when LnL procs it should look like this: ES>delay 0.1sec>ES>AS>ES

more of the same, delaying the third ES is a dps loss.

maybe with 1k latency, not with 100 latency, sorry. The entire point is ExS does 2s DoT, you cant clip 6s worth of DoT in 3 globals one after each other without loosing a tick by default. ExS is 2s duration on first cast, but is almost 3s duration (because of the added tick) on the first refresh and the third ExS would land when there are still two more ticks to go, waisting one, unless you wait whole second, which is pointless and reason why there is a filler after the second ExS in the first place.

[Deleted]

Great guide, hands down. Thanks a lot

[Mr.Pineapple]

maybe with 1k latency, not with 100 latency, sorry. The entire point is ExS does 2s DoT, you cant clip 6s worth of DoT in 3 globals one after each other without loosing a tick by default. ExS is 2s duration on first cast, but is almost 3s duration (because of the added tick) on the first refresh and the third ExS would land when there are still two more ticks to go, waisting one, unless you wait whole second, which is pointless and reason why there is a filler after the second ExS in the first place.

i too assumed someone failed grade two math when i was first told about it but i have done it on dummies repeatedly and get 9 ticks. i got 8 ticks once when my latency was in the green (under 50ms) which never never never happens when i'm raiding. watching my dps jump over 3k the week i started doing this with no new gear means i'm not wrong, despite how grade two math contradicts it. i'm sorry your super good computer is bad for something.

---------- Post added 2011-11-22 at 06:03 PM ----------

also, still looking for numbers or a link to sv trinks. i know for a fact that some of the MM trinks are pretty bad for SV. i've done some sniffing around and i can only find MM trink posts.

---------- Post added 2011-11-22 at 06:13 PM ----------

you'll notice minimal if any difference between 757 haste and 2300, you have to delay ES by at least 1 second to pull off the 1.5 sec CoS rotation and the DPS you can for more arcanes is just overshadowed like that.

At the moment I have too much haste on gear, I hope to get heroic kitty scythe at some point and maybe a beth shoulder with hit/crit so i can drop down to 800ish haste.

2300 haste will likely get you an extra tick from BA as well as faster ticks on SS as well as faster natural regen (minimal, but not unimportant). common sense suggests mastery is more valuable past the caps, but haste at certain levels often leads to smoother rotations. i've personally found that a smooth rotation can edge out small number differences for almost any spec (UH dk for example? ICC blood dk dps? Fire Mage?). i personally play with about 1047 haste, i can't reforge low enough to the soft cap, and anything in between makes my rotation wiggle around hitting the GCD caps. this number makes the rotation smooth for me, so its how i play. i nderstand though that higher level players will want to tune themselves perfectly, and have the computer, guild runs and dedication to do so.

[Pope]

2300 haste will likely get you an extra tick from BA as well as faster ticks on SS as well as faster natural regen (minimal, but not unimportant).

I'm pretty sure none of the SV-dots scale with haste, you might prove me wrong.

[malchihi]

2300 haste will likely get you an extra tick from BA as well as faster ticks on SS as well as faster natural regen (minimal, but not unimportant).

Do note that "Physical" DoTs unlike traditional DoTs do not scale with haste at all. BA and SS will tick 5 times, once every 3 seconds no matter how much haste you have. Here is a snip from a Cho'gall kill last week where I was at ~2100 haste.

[22:05:52.054] Malchihi casts Black Arrow on Cho'gall
[22:05:56.004] Malchihi Black Arrow Cho'gall *15860*
[22:05:59.053] Malchihi Black Arrow Cho'gall 7589
[22:06:01.870] Malchihi Black Arrow Cho'gall 7588
[22:06:04.903] Malchihi Black Arrow Cho'gall *15859*
[22:06:07.987] Malchihi Black Arrow Cho'gall *15860*

[Illana]

I'm pretty sure none of the SV-dots scale with haste, you might prove me wrong.

this is correct, none of our dots scale with haste.

However I'm on a small hiatus at the moment so not had a chance to test my crit>haste>mastery build in conjunction with 2/2 wild hunt. Though I'm expecting nice results.