Ret more fun

[scdogg44]

I like what you said terra. I'm sick and tired of sitting there doing nothing waiting for crusader strike to come off cd just so I can get parried and wait for it again. Judging is pretty much broken. I even think how divine storm and crusader strike sharing the same cd, and how divine storm doesn't add holy power is stupid, but hotr for prot does?

I think Ret is going in the right direction overall but ATM it is very unforgiving. It's way to rng like you stated.

Inb4 learn to play Ret. Yeah try an troll. Ret is clunky needs to be fixed.

[zcks]

-they already buffed SoR and now The ret paladin AOE damage is the most competitive no need to buff divine storm
- gap closer or a snare already already said something about that on Blizz forums:
-the different between melee classes who have snares is they heal themselves
but Ret will heal the othes and also himself
healing the others with selfless healer is a metaphorical snare for your target
Snare is to kite the enemy or to persue the enemy means more time to battle
Ret snare is to heal your Friend or ur self ,to Persue or to Kite the target means also more time to battle

The problem is its impossible to balance a dps spec that is possible of healing others as well as ret can because then that spec is much more powerful then others in pve & will be far more sought after as was evidenced early in cataclysm.
As for self healing/damage prevention & other self survival tools, ever other class already has some - a great deal of these tools. One of ret's problems is that its own personal self survival tools/mechanics are too closely tied to its mechanics for helping others, governed by RNG mechanics & are too easily counted by dispel effects.

The only way you can assure balance with such a class/spec (hybrids capable of filling 2 or more roles) is to implement some sort of stance/form/presence system so that they can not do both things simultaneously as has been admitted by the blizzard designers while at the same time the management accepts it but refuses to let them implement the mechanic because paladins are paladins & must be different even though every other hybrid has such a system & even if that means they cannot be balanced.


I'm not advocating we get the exact same basic tools at exactly the same strength as everyone else, I'm simply saying that the designers are right when they said such tools are needed.
That being said weaker modified versions (longer CD or not quite as powerful) of said tools & a slight modification to our existing mechanics would go a long way to assure balance is achieved.

[Deleted]

Imo Divine Purpose should just proc off Judgement removing the anyoing RNG part, removing inquisition wont solve anything we just need less rng and a stable rotation.

[zcks]

\
i know you guys thinking of a Real snare not a metaphorical one
but if that happen u should also think about the Consequences Blizz dont give anything for free
without taking something

This ^ is also part of the problem with the management at blizzard.

If you look back at vanilla paladins they were lacking a great many things, (especially in the case of ret & prot) over time more tools/abilities & mechanics have been added. But at the same time everyone else has also gotten more tools/mechanics & abilities.
So if you look & the complete toolkit of a paladin vs any other class & their various specs paladins still have far fewer abilities/tools for each given role.

Until that changes and each of the paladin specs receives more tools/abilities for its perspective role (especially prot & ret) the balance of the different paladin specs will not improve very much compared to other classes & their specs because they will not be able to change a single mechanic for one of the paladin specs without having adverse negative or positive effects on the other paladin specs.
This is because so many of the paladin abilities are so closely shared between the different paladin specs & paladins as a class lack well tuned balance mechanisms every other hybrid already has (stance/presence/forms, granted shamans could be improved by a decent amount). It is these such balance mechanisms which help guarantee changing the effects of one ability do not have too far reaching adverse effects on the other specs, this is because things like damage potential, survivability & ability to help others can be modified by a simple tweak of the numbers of one presence/form/stance without effecting the others.

[Deleted]

This ^ is also part of the problem with the management at blizzard.

If you look back at vanilla paladins they were lacking a great many things, (especially in the case of ret & prot) over time more tools/abilities & mechanics have been added. But at the same time everyone else has also gotten more tools/mechanics & abilities.
So if you look & the complete toolkit of a paladin vs any other class & their various specs paladins still have far fewer abilities/tools for each given role.

Until that changes and each of the paladin specs receives more tools/abilities for its perspective role (especially prot & ret) the balance of the different paladin specs will not improve very much compared to other classes & their specs because they will not be able to change a single mechanic for one of the paladin specs without having adverse negative or positive effects on the other paladin specs.
This is because so many of the paladin abilities are so closely shared between the different paladin specs & paladins as a class lack well tuned balance mechanisms every other hybrid already has (stance/presence/forms, granted shamans could be improved by a decent amount). It is these such balance mechanisms which help guarantee changing the effects of one ability do not have too far reaching adverse effects on the other specs, this is because things like damage potential, survivability & ability to help others can be modified by a simple tweak of the numbers of one presence/form/stance without effecting the others.

Is that hard to make the spec deal decent amount of damage while healing if needed? theres no god dam excuse for blizzard to make a class almost unplayable despite people saying 'it is ok' 'ret is fine' that must be blind or something, the only thing that i can think off is that they are lazy.

[Stormrised]

Imo revert ret pallies to how they were pre 4.0 and ill be the happiest man alive

This. 100% this, just give me back my old FCFS rotation if you cant come up with anything enjoyable.
Playing my pally 2 months into cata made me just reroll, its horrible.

[marinos]

This. 100% this, just give me back my old FCFS rotation if you cant come up with anything enjoyable.
Playing my pally 2 months into cata made me just reroll, its horrible.

FCFS hasnt changed at all with Cataclysm.We still dont have a "rotation".

[zcks]

Is that hard to make the spec deal decent amount of damage while healing if needed? theres no god dam excuse for blizzard to make a class almost unplayable despite people saying 'it is ok' 'ret is fine' that must be blind or something, the only thing that i can think off is that they are lazy.

The problem isn't making it able to perform, its designing it, balancing it & fine tuning it so that its smooth & enjoyable within the meager time the design team was allocated while not being completely OP or under par.
Before beta even started the design team admitted they have always had the hardest time designing & balancing paladins (mainly because the limitations put on them by management), then the management at blizzard decided to again place paladins last in line for design, balance & fine tuning before the game went live.

Then during the cataclysm beta the design team had allot of different ideas (all the published ones were better on paper then they were implemented due to various reasons) but they were given very little time to implement changes & fine tune them.
During this time the management team at blizzard flat out told them they could not implement many of the tools/abilities for the class/spec that they wanted to and also told them they could not implement many of the balancing mechanisms the design team has gone on record admitting are needed (stance/form/presences etc...) even though the same management agreed such mechanics are needed.
The management at blizzard did this because they simply did not see ret spec as worth the effort & because they believed that paladins should be "different" in design & implementation even if those differences made them impossible to balance properly simply because they are paladins.

[Riekul]

Here is my humble opinion (I'm sure everyone has their own ideas, but these are mine)

I think Holy should be the only Paladin spec that benefits from a unique Holy Power ability (Light of Dawn). I mean, Holy Paladin, Holy Power...it just makes sense. As for ret and prot (the two specs I actually have experience with) here goes:

1. For ret and prot, remove TV and Shield from the holy power mechanic, and instead they now generate 1 point of holy power. Institute a reasonable cooldown for each (6 seconds?)
2. I like the idea of a 4.5 second CD for crusader strike for both ret & prot. With having both CS and your primary for HP generation, I don't think the CD reduction is necessary
3. For all specs - for each point of holy power, the cast time of exorcism is reduced by 33%(making it instant at 3 points) also increases the dmg it does with each point (bye bye randomness of art of war procs).
4. Inquisition mechanic is fine, I'm not even sure the duration without being ret, but I think it should be 15 seconds for all/45 seconds for ret (3 HP of course).
5. Divine Storm should ALWAYS generate one point of holy power, share a CD with crusader strike, but continue to be inefficient with fewer than 4 or 5 targets(fun times hitting it when there are enough targets to get a point, but by the time it goes off something has died, and guess what, no HP for you).
6. For prot, Hammer or Consecrate would likely need a buff to compensate for the longer CD on CS/Hammer.
7. For ret, remove DP. In its place have a proc mechanic that does...something...anything but what DP did. Reset judgment cooldown perhaps?
8. Have Judgment actually do decent damage again. Make me want to hit the button for something other than mana.
9. Have a glyph (major or minor?) that forces holy wrath into a single target spell. This would make it a slightly better filler, and remove the annoying times when it gets sucked up by critters or cc targets.

With all of those changes, I think the "rotation" would be much more fun and engaging. Obviously the damage on most or all of the above mentioned abilities would likely need to be tweaked. Thoughts?

T

[beingmused]

FCFS hasnt changed at all with Cataclysm.We still dont have a "rotation".

What DPS class has a "rotation"? They all have priority systems now.

In Wrath every single ability felt basically identical. Judgment was the hardest hitting, but CS and DS were very close behind. It was DamagingAttack1, DamagingAttack2, DamagingAttack3, bland and identityless. Now, our attacks are at least different. The rotation has flavor, and it is infinitely more fun than it was in Wrath. They accomplished what they set out to do (Ret's rotation was the butt of every joke in Wrath), and if you don't enjoy it, then I hope you find another class that you enjoy more!

[zcks]

What DPS class has a "rotation"? They all have priority systems now.

While true they also have fillers to use when CD's aren't finished & thus always have something to do, ret on the other hand does not & is thus extremely reliant (possibly more so then any other spec in game) on luck for how effective it is in what it does because without luck it has nothing to do but wait.

[Schmilblick]

Ret Is REALLY fine right now, we need just another offensive technique to make us less boring to play.

[marinos]

What DPS class has a "rotation"? They all have priority systems now.

In Wrath every single ability felt basically identical. Judgment was the hardest hitting, but CS and DS were very close behind. It was DamagingAttack1, DamagingAttack2, DamagingAttack3, bland and identityless. Now, our attacks are at least different. The rotation has flavor, and it is infinitely more fun than it was in Wrath. They accomplished what they set out to do (Ret's rotation was the butt of every joke in Wrath), and if you don't enjoy it, then I hope you find another class that you enjoy more!

I never talked about other classes/specs.I just responded to him saying that he misses FCFS while in reality thats how ret still works.

[Reith]

While true they also have fillers to use when CD's aren't finished & thus always have something to do, ret on the other hand does not & is thus extremely reliant (possibly more so then any other spec in game) on luck for how effective it is in what it does because without luck it has nothing to do but wait.

We need more abilities, plain and simple, but Blizzard-forbid we ever get more than 2 weapon strikes in any given expansion.

[Matrlx]

i respect ur opinion zcks and ur Right about what u said
but im Sure that the way Blizz think about paladins snares is their healing abilities
and i hate to see a blue post saying : u want a real snare ok , Ex: Holy chain , but we will remove WoG , or Holy radiance from ur talent tree
OUCH!!

[SoulPoetry]

heh, we have no MS ret pallies anymore and it's threads like these that tell you why. 1 rerolled to a druid tank, 1 rerolled to prot, we had a ret for a brief period but never showed up, other than that no apps. the rest of our pallies are prot or holy and our prots nag each other in good fun about going ret for something. i personally think Holy Power is a bit clunky and Divine Purpose (the free proc thing) is way too RNG. on my pally for a bit in 4.0 (my first alt to 85 and i wanted to see how ret was) i would go 3hp Inq -> 3hp TV -> then have to refresh Inq again due to no procs while other times TV would be proccing more TVs than an amoeba television. needless to say i didn't persure the way of retribution on that character.

[Kashydan]

raidleader made me respec ret for dmg-testing-purposes and "we could need an extra melee occasionally if you don't wanna tank from time to time, ye know"..
respecced off retribution to pure tank 2 weeks into 4.0 and hadnt really played ret again for the last 6 or so months, just grabbin 2ndgear in raid if no-one else needed it and the occasional can-u-plz-respecc-on-vali&thera?kkthx, where i didnt bother with a proper priorization/rotation...

but i tried, again, this afternoon...
and my raidleader has a really hard time to convince me to stay prot 1st-spec... i mean, DAMN, what are you all complaining about, this is FUN well,as long as you have the 4piece-t11, could imagine the rotation to be a real PITA with a shorter inquisition...
and as far as pve goes, i really never, for one moment, had the feeling of "ahw, i could really use *abilityX* right now that ret doesnt have"

just my drunk thoughts

edit: when i see post like "holy power suxx bad, i got a great idea *yaddayadda30linesofbullsh*" or "i want my FCFS rotation back", i can just say:
jeez, have you even played this class longer than an hour? we had fcfs since BC, and we still got it.. we just got more buttons to press into the priority-list.
and HP is a great mechanic - if you ever played Retribution as a Raider in BC or even Wrath for that matter, you're on your knees and worshipping all gods you can reach for making this class less boring since 4.0
get a grip
or reroll

[zcks]

i respect ur opinion zcks and ur Right about what u said
but im Sure that the way Blizz think about paladins snares is their healing abilities
and i hate to see a blue post saying : u want a real snare ok , Ex: Holy chain , but we will remove WoG , or Holy radiance from ur talent tree
OUCH!!

Your right, blizzard has said that instead of a snare ret has the role of an off healer.

They have also gone on record saying that the role of an off healing dps cannot & never will be balanced in pvp or pve especially in the case of a class that lacks a stance/presence/form system to fine tune/balance effects, and guess what they flat out refuse to let the design team give paladins simply because paladins are paladins!

[Liminal]

Ret Is REALLY fine right now, we need just another offensive technique to make us less boring to play.

Oxymoron is Oxymoronic... Yeah, it' fine... So fine that you admit to wanting to change it.

No one is complaining about DPS. They are complaining about how stupid the "rotation" is. It's simply NOT fun. It's simply NOT fine.

[Bombkirby]

You want to remove holy wrath from the game? And replace it with a talent deep within ret? That won't affect prot's aoe threat AT ALL. What could possibly go wrong?

You could NOT have said that any better!