Haste>Master>Crit??

[Apocryphal]

I see no reason why haste would gain so much and I believe that this will be chalked up to a bug in his spreadsheet.

Haste, if not able to hit the 3 sec cs, will only affect Censure ticks and auto attacks. More auto attacks will bring a slightly increased number of Art of War procs and the few additional SoC hits though, but I do not believe that this will be enough to increase its value over mastery which is such a large amount of our damage at the moment (for me it can be over 50% depending on the fight). I have to fall in line with those that agree that haste is not and will not be our most valued stat until the 3 sec cs is obtainable.

[Badpaladin]

I think some of you are missing the point. Haste will, undeniably, lead to more CS's. Period. Even if you're not at 3.0s with your CS cooldown, you're still going to be seeing significantly more CS casts and that is a good thing. The only issue is up until that point, there will be significant clash occurring that will subtract from your total gains. After all, you ideally want to keep every ability on cooldown as much as you can. That's why simulations and spreadsheets are needed, it's just none of them can seem to agree right now.

[t3hj0j0]

I think some of you are missing the point. Haste will, undeniably, lead to more CS's. Period. Even if you're not at 3.0s with your CS cooldown, you're still going to be seeing significantly more CS casts and that is a good thing. The only issue is up until that point, there will be significant clash occurring that will subtract from your total gains. After all, you ideally want to keep every ability on cooldown as much as you can. That's why simulations and spreadsheets are needed, it's just none of them can seem to agree right now.

Even more than that, it leads to a (slightly) smoother rotation. Because we have blank spots, more CS = less holes. Now, I really don't think haste has jumped as far as the SS in question shows, I have no problem believing it has jumped a bit with the increased availability of haste.

[Apocryphal]

I think some of you are missing the point. Haste will, undeniably, lead to more CS's. Period. Even if you're not at 3.0s with your CS cooldown, you're still going to be seeing significantly more CS casts and that is a good thing. The only issue is up until that point, there will be significant clash occurring that will subtract from your total gains. After all, you ideally want to keep every ability on cooldown as much as you can. That's why simulations and spreadsheets are needed, it's just none of them can seem to agree right now.

I do not feel that until we hit that 3s cs we will not see a greater cs total to make any sort of impact. Having to obey the 1.5s global cooldown will eliminate nearly any amount of cs that would have been gained from going to a 3.9s to a 3.7s for example. The only clash, I feel, is between the crit and mastery inflection point.

[Ulmita]

I see no reason why haste would gain so much and I believe that this will be chalked up to a bug in his spreadsheet.

He has already explained what happened to make the weight of haste jump so high (doesn't allow me yet to post links).

Bottom line is, that this is an interesting turn of events to say the least. If what he found is correct, optimistically speaking we might be faced with a new (more solid) play style or even the birth of two different builds. I would imagine that if we are reforging all this time so wrong, that we would see even a slight increase in damage output + the benefits of a more solid rotation through haste. From the other hand it might not affect stuff much.

In any case, as i said before, for me at least is an interesting find.

[Badpaladin]

I do not feel that until we hit that 3s cs we will not see a greater cs total to make any sort of impact. Having to obey the 1.5s global cooldown will eliminate nearly any amount of cs that would have been gained from going to a 3.9s to a 3.7s for example. The only clash, I feel, is between the crit and mastery inflection point.

That makes zero sense.

[FiveDkp]

I thought this was a holy paladin thread.

[terrahero]

That makes zero sense.

It makes some sense. If your Cs goes from 3.9 to 3.7 cd you'll still want to use a filler at 3.0sec. Meaning you wont be able to use your CS untill 4.5 (slightly sooner perhaps if your filler was a spell).
But overall you would get an increase in CS's used because of periods where you got nothing to use except wait for CS. You'd be waiting slightly less. But with a slightly lower cd of 0.2sec youd need alot of those empty spots to fit in 1 more CS for that specific gain of Haste.

Im skeptical, but i will reserve judgement (lolpun) untill after there has been some proper math. Not gona drastically reforge and regem all of a sudden, thats for sure.

[Matrlx]

with reading all ur Posts now i got this feeling that :
im LOST OK ?
wich better Mastery or haste?????

[Deleted]

If you can "easily" see the impact of mastery and crit on DPS, it's not so easy for haste. Haste influences swing speed (and art of war proc), censure tick (at least as I know), CS and DS cooldown (and then influences mastery damage). It also influences Templar Virdict since your CS cooldown is lowered and then again, influences mastery for TV.
Since divine storm, TV and inquisition can proc Divine Purpose, haste has an effect also on this ability.
So, as you can see, it's not easy to calculate the impact of haste on retribution dps

[Matrlx]

well coz ret paladin depend on RnG , wich Mastery makes the RnG proc alot , with 21 Mastery i see alot of Dv proc more then who have 17 mastery
i did test the haste before , and i had a good boost for Dps , i dunno if i should change my mastery to haste , i have 21 mastery wich gives me 15% additional holy damage changing them to haste well do i need to try reforging or what ?

[Deleted]

And another problem i've seen now: apparatus titanic power stacks only on crit strike. I've a really low crit strike at the moment so I've some problems to reach 5 stack of Titanic Power.

And if a balanced value of all 3 stats is required?

[Badpaladin]

It makes some sense. If your Cs goes from 3.9 to 3.7 cd you'll still want to use a filler at 3.0sec. Meaning you wont be able to use your CS untill 4.5 (slightly sooner perhaps if your filler was a spell).
But overall you would get an increase in CS's used because of periods where you got nothing to use except wait for CS. You'd be waiting slightly less. But with a slightly lower cd of 0.2sec youd need alot of those empty spots to fit in 1 more CS for that specific gain of Haste.

For starters, a gain like that isn't what you would see if you were to aim for more haste on your gear. You would see quite a bit more change in CS's cooldown; which is why making a comparison like this doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, my point is that the more haste you have, the more Crusader Strikes you cast. Having a 3.0s CS isn't some magical fairyland of musical awesomeness stuffed up Mickey Mouse's ass, it's a point where CS -> filler -> CS is finally without significant ability clash. Differences in clash is not a matter of multiple hundreds of DPS, and really is something only the most competitive should be concerned with.

I don't know why you're all still so fascinated with this spot. It's not like haste is worthless until it reaches that point.

[Matrlx]

Then blizz should make Crusader strike 3 sec cd

[marinos]

Then blizz should make Crusader strike 3 sec cd

You can bet on that.
Atm Mastery is still n1.The point now is if haste is better than crit.
Still needs some testing in order to be sure.

[Deleted]

I have a question.

If we have : Mastery > Haste > crit Now. AoK stay BiS ? I've low crit with : Mastery > crit > haste, and sometimes, I give the stack with a big difficult.

So, my question is : With More Haste, what happened for Aok ?


Sorry for my english, I'm french

[Kinmaul]

Nothing changes with AoK, if anything this change actually make's better in some scenarios. The reason being is that Mastery is still our best secondary stat and that's what we want AoK to proc. With Mastery > Crit >> Haste some gearsets ended up with more Crit than Mastery, so you either had to take the Crit proc or reforge some Crit to Haste to get Mastery to proc. If after everything settles down and our new stat priority ends up being Mastery > Haste >> Crit it will be that much easier to ensure that AoK procs Mastery.

[Rambard]

For starters, a gain like that isn't what you would see if you were to aim for more haste on your gear. You would see quite a bit more change in CS's cooldown; which is why making a comparison like this doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, my point is that the more haste you have, the more Crusader Strikes you cast. Having a 3.0s CS isn't some magical fairyland of musical awesomeness stuffed up Mickey Mouse's ass, it's a point where CS -> filler -> CS is finally without significant ability clash. Differences in clash is not a matter of multiple hundreds of DPS, and really is something only the most competitive should be concerned with.

I don't know why you're all still so fascinated with this spot. It's not like haste is worthless until it reaches that point.

You're right, haste is not useless until you reach that point. But, what he's trying to say, is that generally you're not going to "clip" doing your rotation spam just to get that next CS at the .x seconds after you cast your first filler. Almost every time, someone is going to cast a second filler, which results in basically having a 4.5s CS anyway! (Of course, haste does effect your auto attack and Censure ticks but... passive things are passive). Before being able to actively attain the golden 3s CS, reforging/gemming/enchanting towards haste is just absolute silliness.

[Badpaladin]

You're right, haste is not useless until you reach that point. But, what he's trying to say, is that generally you're not going to "clip" doing your rotation spam just to get that next CS at the .x seconds after you cast your first filler. Almost every time, someone is going to cast a second filler, which results in basically having a 4.5s CS anyway! (Of course, haste does effect your auto attack and Censure ticks but... passive things are passive). Before being able to actively attain the golden 3s CS, reforging/gemming/enchanting towards haste is just absolute silliness.

I'm too lazy to math it out, but I imagine it's a DPS increase to delay for a bit if it means getting a CS sooner, given how much more powerful it is now. That aside, there are also many times where fillers are on cooldown and you can't do anything but CS -> filler -> CS or CS -> CS anyways. In that regard, a shorter cooldown is exactly what you'd want.

I'm not saying we should jump ship (in fact, I earlier stated not to have a knee-jerk reaction and reforge away), but reforging haste when not reaching the 3.0s CS isn't silly in the least bit. This is pending testing, however. So far none of the spreadsheets seem to agree with each other.

[Floross]

The only problem I see with haste being beneficial is Time on Target .