Exploits.

[Jazzhands]

People seem to have trouble with whats an exploit and what isn't. I know the line between "Clever use of game mechanics" and "exploit" can be rather blurry, however I think there is one clear thing about what an exploit is:

Purposefully using an unintended bug to bypass or simplify a fight mechanic.

A few examples:

Ensidia used saronite bombs to exploit their 25LK kill, instead of reporting the bug and doing the fight normally.

(I forget which guild did this) bugged Yogg+0 by having a paladin healer evade bug guardians in phase 3.

Both examples are a case where something unintended caused the fight to become trivial.

I never got why people think things like Class stacking and "gimmicks" are exploits.

Paragon's H25 Nef kill baffled me when people said they exploited because they stacked druids. This kind of logic simply does not make sense to me. The recent thread that popped up made me think about this, but it's not the first time I've seen people claiming such things are exploits. Are people seriously just that jealous?

[Bahamutx]

The people who are confusing this are not going to read this. But good definition of exploiting.

[z0phi3l]

People making the "exploit" claims are retards

[lopk]

Purposefully using an unintended bug to bypass or simplify a fight mechanic.

So are you insisting that the fact that druids doing way more damage than they were supposed to​ was intended?

[Jazzhands]

The people who are confusing this are not going to read this. But good definition of exploiting.

I know, and it's very unfortunate. I really am interested in a more thought out opinion from people as to why they believe class stacking and the likes are exploits, but I probably won't be able to get one out of them, regardless of whether or not they read it.

---------- Post added 2011-07-21 at 07:15 PM ----------

So are you insisting that the fact that druids doing way more damage than they were supposed to​ was intended?

Rip did a ton of damage because of an intended fight mechanic. When Nef MCs you, you get a bar to break MC or cast http://www.wowhead.com/spell=80627. They stacked ferals, because Rip is the hardest ability in the game, so it's the best ability to use with said buff. I see no problems, as they didn't use it in an unintentional manner that allowed them to completely bypass a part of the fight.

[drake741]

So are you insisting that the fact that druids doing way more damage than they were supposed to​ was intended?

Im not sure that counts as a bug, unless there is some decimal in the wrong place or something. I think he means more along the lines of being somewhere where the boss loses LoS of you but you somehow don't lose LoS of it. THats an unintended bug that could be used to unfairly defeat the boss/mechanics.

[Amerifunk]

So are you insisting that the fact that druids doing way more damage than they were supposed to​ was intended?

Someoooooooooone has never done H Nef befooooore!

[Abandon]

So are you insisting that the fact that druids doing way more damage than they were supposed to​ was intended?

Using an attack that hits hard is not an exploit, no.

[Ceazyface]

So are you insisting that the fact that druids doing way more damage than they were supposed to​ was intended?

The thing is they weren't doing way more damage than they were supposed to. The mechanic was supposed to work a certain way with DoTs, and it did. Blizzard nerfed it because it created the type of class imbalance on the encounter they've been trying to avoid since vanilla. It worked the way it was supposed to, but I doubt Blizzard wanted guilds to feel it was easier to just stack Druids. No abuse was made other than taking advantage of the class that did the most damage (see: Sunwell)

[parkerlynne]

Purposefully using an unintended bug to bypass or simplify a fight mechanic.

Very much agree, I like your definition. Otherwise it just seems like griping and jealousy when people bitch about stacking because their guild doesn't have the roster to pull it off or didn't think of the idea first.

[lopk]

Ok, I see what you're getting at, I was just thinking about it from a different perspective.

No, they by no means "bugged out" Nef. I'm fully aware that exploit does not equal class stacking.

I, however, was referring to OP's use of the word "unintended" (and also completely missed the word bug right after it).

Did they use an unintended mechanic (meaning did Blizzard intend for druids to scale much higher than other classes)? I'd say. Did they exploit (i.e. bug the encounter) No, not at all.

Someoooooooooone has never done H Nef befooooore!

I haven't, and that's probably why I look like an idiot right now. I'm basing all of these claims off of the damage meter provided at the end of Paragon's kill video.

[sicness]

Rip did a ton of damage because of an intended fight mechanic. When Nef MCs you, you get a bar to break MC or cast http://www.wowhead.com/spell=80627. They stacked ferals, because Rip is the hardest ability in the game, so it's the best ability to use with said buff. I see no problems, as they didn't use it in an unintentional manner that allowed them to completely bypass a part of the fight.

This should be posted in every thread that tries to bring up the supposed 'exploit' Paragon used on heroic Nef. Yes the encounter was changed afterward but not just because the buff was overly reliable for feral druids, but so ridiculously unreliable for other classes. Hence why it was changed to a straight damage buff.

[Jazzhands]

Ok, I see what you're getting at, I was just thinking about it from a different perspective.

No, they by no means "bugged out" Nef. I'm fully aware that exploit does not equal class stacking.

I, however, was referring to OP's use of the word "unintended" (and also completely missed the word bug right after it).

Did they use an unintended mechanic? I'd say. Did they exploit (i.e. bug the encounter) No, not at all.

They used a fight mechanic that increases damage to increase their damage. They just used the hardest hitting ability with it. It's not like it unintentionally increased druids damage more then it would increase a mage's or rogue's.

[scottwardadd]

They said this about subtlety Rogues in beginning ulduar using the HAT spec with hunters. It was an amazing spec that got nerfed, just required at least 3 rogues, and the more the better.

[lopk]

They used a fight mechanic that increases damage to increase their damage. They just used the hardest hitting ability with it. It's not like it unintentionally increased druids damage more then it would increase a mage's or rogue's.

I'd like to make a rebuttal about how the highest druid was at about 59k dps and the highest mage at 22k, but I feel as I'll just be digging my own grave.

[Deleted]

Ok, I see what you're getting at, I was just thinking about it from a different perspective.

No, they by no means "bugged out" Nef. I'm fully aware that exploit does not equal class stacking.

I, however, was referring to OP's use of the word "unintended" (and also completely missed the word bug right after it).

Did they use an unintended mechanic (meaning did Blizzard intend for druids to scale much higher than other classes)? I'd say. Did they exploit (i.e. bug the encounter) No, not at all.



I haven't, and that's probably why I look like an idiot right now. I'm basing all of these claims off of the damage meter provided at the end of Paragon's kill video.

*rubs eyes* did... did someone just own up to their mistake?

OT, I completely agree with you OP. When I heard Paragon had 'exploited' Raggy I thought "Oh god, what now?" and then heard about the trinket thing. To me, that is a pretty genious bit of thinking. It's not at all exploiting, or even a cheap tactic, it's something I like to call 'Situational-Best-In-Slot'.

[sicness]

I'd like to make a rebuttal about how the highest druid was at about 59k dps and the highest mage at 22k, but I feel as I'll just be digging my own grave.

When you have a raid compromised primarily of druids they're more likely to get the buff more than other players. The primary reason they stacked druids was because they could reliably take advantage of the buff, unlike most classes, and they had unreal durability for the fight.

[Volitar]

Class stacking is not an exploit that's the reason some guilds have 50+ members deep

Using an item thought not to be good ie shadowsong to help during a boss is not an exploit.

Using engineering grenades to create a platform an avoid val'kyr is an exploit.

Avoid bugging enemies to avoid killing them is an exploit.


good'ay

[lopk]

*rubs eyes* did... did someone just own up to their mistake?

OT, I completely agree with you OP. When I heard Paragon had 'exploited' Raggy I thought "Oh god, what now?" and then heard about the trinket thing. To me, that is a pretty genious bit of thinking. It's not at all exploiting, or even a cheap tactic, it's something I like to call 'Situational-Best-In-Slot'.

No, because I didn't make a mistake? I never, ever, said it was an exploit. I simply said (and still believe now) that Blizzard did not intend for druids to be able to deal that much more damage than the rest of the classes. I understood and still do understand Paragon class stacked, not exploited, to get the most out of this buff.

Anyway, looks like my grave is already completely dug, better go hide out before I have to defend myself some more.

[Tygroen]

I'll have to agree with the OP on this. I can't really fathom how some think that Sorrowsong, or w/e that trinket is called, is an "exploit". Seems rather catty and jealous to me to be attempting to call out someone on something that really has nothing to do with you (despite the fact that it was a baseless claim).