Ragnaros 10 Heroic DOWN by DREAM Paragon!

[TyrianFC]

Why should they be quiet?

Read what I said again here:

I would be very interested to read a thorough, objective analysis from Paragon as to differences between 10 and 25. Im not interested in reading '...and 10s are so much easier, that is undeniable' and 'they just roll over and give loot'. Thats the sort of stuff I expect from the three T's: trash, trolls and trade-chat.

You might be surprised to hear this: But there are some smart players (and readers here) capable of making their own decisions - when the facts and objective analysis/comparison is presented to them. Just because Paragon says something doesnt mean everyone somehow loses the ability to form their own opinions as to whether they should agree or disagree with it.

Paragon said they would provide an extensive '10 vs 25' update on their website in a few days - and I was (and still am) expecting a good presentation and analysis. I will be much more impressed if Paragon tries to present everything as objectively as possible - aka respecting the reader enough to make their own decisions - perhaps leaving a section near the end for heavily subjective thoughts.

I do understand it might not be possible yet to talk about Heroic Ragnaros 10 VS 25 in the sort of detail needed, until more guilds get kills. Fine, but the other 6 bosses are on the table.

Im expecting to walk away impressed with the level of eloquence and depth of the analysis. I did not expect that members from Paragon will come here early and get involved in (most of the) silly back-and-forth here with trade/trolls/trash comments such as '10s practically roll over and give free loot'. Seriously guys? I really hope their update has more substance than that.

And for others reading this, remember that being the best guild in the world... would be nice. But being the most respected guild in the world... would be 1000 times better in so many ways.

[Beace]

I'm looking forward to that analysis as well. And I have no doubt it'll have the same conclusion other Paragon members have already presented in this thread. Dunno why you or anyone else would think otherwise.

[Zavri]

Read what I said again here:



You might be surprised to hear this: But there are some smart players (and readers here) capable of making their own decisions - when the facts and objective analysis/comparison is presented to them.

Paragon said they would do it in a few days when I read their last website update - and I was (and still am) expecting a good presentation and analysis. I will be much more impressed if Paragon tries to present everything as objectively as possible - aka respecting me (the reader) enough to make my own decisions - perhaps leaving one section near the end for their personal thoughts.

I do understand it might not be possible yet to talk about Heroic Ragnaros 10 VS 25 in the sort of detail needed, until more guilds get kills. Fine, but the other 6 bosses are on the table.

Im expecting to walk away impressed with the level of eloquence and depth of the analysis. I did not expect that members from Paragon will come here early and get involved in (most of the) silly back-and-forth here with trade/trolls/trash comments such as '10s practically roll over and give free loot'. Seriously guys? I really hope their update has more substance than that.

OFC their update will be professional and all that jazz. When you work your god damn ass off for a super hard boss kill that took RIDICULOUS time and effort and some jelly scrubs try to degrade that, I expect nothing else but some comeback by paragon, they deserve to be able to shut up the scrubs.

[MAGAmobile]

I'll give you another non-exaggeration then. That's pretty much the gear difference between you and a 10 man guild; an entire full tier's worth of gear. There's no multiple groups of mains mixed with alts farming normal modes the first week for pimping them out, there's no lootfest every time sinestra dies for months, there's no heaps of delicious tokens dropping. It's all hunter bows given to rogues, just like you so ironically experienced on this kill.

You go in there with your best group possible, stacking 2 moonkins and a resto druid on top of them, stacked in gear that 10 man guilds won't have for another month at least and claim it was easier by miles? You can't be that thick, this has to be trolling. Go and find a 10 man guild that has 3 balance/resto druids. I seriously doubt there's any in the world? Or even if there is one, try gearing up 3 leather int classes simultaneously and see how fun it is and how much gear they have?

I do respect your dedication and skill, but this attitude is completely disrespectful towards 10 man raiders. You take the perfect group setup, equipped with the best possible gear that no 10 man guild could possibly have and claim it felt like a tier easier? Well, dude, it was.

It *is* entirely possible that the fight is undertuned on 10 or overtuned or 25 or something in between. The way you did it in 10 however, has nothing in common with what a real 10 man guild has to face at this point in time.

Wait, so they used a group that makes the fight easier to deal with, even though they split up their gear among 25 people and didn't intentionally stack gear on said group of 10, not to mention they've gone through all the content the same number of times as any other guild, and they're automatically a tier's worth of gear ahead? Pretty sure their gear set isn't anywhere near as far ahead (if at all) as you think it is. Any guild worth their salt regardless of raid size will use the best possible comp for any fight. If they don't, then they're not dedicated enough to be the best.

Grats on the kill either way, but bias will always come up for whichever way the fight is done first even if you have experience in both raid sizes. It would also help to be humble with your comparison of 10v25 rag without coming off like assholes.

[Maelstrom51]

Wait, so they used a group that makes the fight easier to deal with, even though they split up their gear among 25 people and didn't intentionally stack gear on said group of 10, not to mention they've gone through all the content the same number of times as any other guild, and they're automatically a tier's worth of gear ahead? Pretty sure their gear set isn't anywhere near as far ahead (if at all) as you think it is. Any guild worth their salt regardless of raid size will use the best possible comp for any fight. If they don't, then they're not dedicated enough to be the best.

Grats on the kill either way, but bias will always come up for whichever way the fight is done first even if you have experience in both raid sizes. It would also help to be humble with your comparison of 10v25 rag without coming off like assholes.

Problem is that a 25 man guild has 25 geared people to choose from for their 10 man kill. A 10 man guild has 10 geared players, and any others they bring in to have the perfect composition will have significantly worse gear.

[MAGAmobile]

Problem is that a 25 man guild has 25 geared people to choose from for their 10 man kill. A 10 man guild has 10 geared players, and any others they bring in to have the perfect composition will have significantly worse gear.

So any real serious guild in 10 man that wanted to compete with 25 players would recruit more people and not have to deal with it... how is this a hard concept? Also, there is such a thing as alt runs. There is a reason why top some guilds have a raiding roster of 32-35 people in 25 mans, it's not unreasonable for a 10 man to have 14-15 people.

[lunchbox070287]

grats to them

[Grizzly Willy]

I'm not even going to entertain your ignorance. Have fun with your 'harder' raids, I mean, you're already world 1st you don't need to talk a bunch of shit about 10 man's being easy to prove you're doing the harder modes.

I don't understand how you're claiming he's the ignorant one, when he has more experience than you, and probably, you know, knows what he's talking about.

[Deleted]

There is a reason why top some guilds have a raiding roster of 32-35 people in 25 mans, it's not unreasonable for a 10 man to have 14-15 people.

Dunno about others, but 12-15 player is a standard roster if you wanna play not just because of fun.
Tier 11 got bosses where you want 3 tanks, so either off specs or switch players. Then you'll need just one tank for current bosses (baleroc, majordomo, rhyolith), swap a tank for dps.
You need a balance between melee and ranged dps, bomb and focus dps. If you don't want to clear content weeks or months later as it was current, you need to have a variety in your roster.

The only problem in 10-man: switch two dps and you might lose loot (e.g. hunter vs rogue, mail agi drops. rogue vs hunter, agi dagger drops)

you even need a good roster to balance buffs/debuffs in your grp. it should be common sense that a 10-man isn't just 10 people.

imho it's just completely out of the way to have an alt raid while in progress time. why should you progress 3-4 nights a week as fast as you can go (eg trying ragnaros hc) and cancel a progress night just to farm gear with your alts for a possible alternative line-up?
for me it sounds like "make 10-man grps and switch best people for best line-up in grp 1".

but just a problem: in order to make an alt run, no player may have been used in the main raid, or else he got id-stuck. and you can only stard 1 heroic id, there may be problems arise, too.
we have a roster of 15 players for our 10-man, and no one of them isn't played in the main raid, how should they kill anything in an alt raid with a raid id?

[MAGAmobile]

I'm saying that if you want to play with the absolute best and compete for the #1 spot worldwide or in your given region, you would go to that length and then some to obtain it. You may not go to such lengths if you're going for the best on your realm or what have you, but it's just something guilds have done for years already. Some guilds have 2-3 consistent 10 mans and pick and choose from there. All the power to them if they can pull it off, but a lot of people don't do that.

[Deleted]

I cant imagine that these people actually still have fun playing.
I mean hallo? go an wipe hundreds of times, hours over hours every day, to have finished the new stuff in 3 weeks? then go and farm the instances for the next 4 months so you are overequippt and can go and clear the next instance from the next contentpatch in 2-3 weeks again? just to be able to say, you got the fristkill?
How boring. Somehow pitiful...
I was in hardcore raidguilds aswell on the olden days, but today, I'm so happy to be able to play in a 10man raid, where everybody is a RL friend of mine, and we raid 1-2 times a week. and on fridays/saturadys we go and get pissed together. that's how playing wow is really fun!

End game raiding is like the sex life in a marriage..... U wanna get it the **** over with so you can get back into the living room and finish off that football match.

I am an olympic runner, i like to run, in fact i LOVE to run. WHY would i try and win the race, when I can in fact just do it in my own pase, enjoying my run.. See my point ? Or am I too unclear. It's competition, it drives a certain type of people.. The rush you get upon getting that WF, the rush you get upon winning a race.. It's roughly the same. Adrenaline, the orgasm of the gaming industry. (Fyi this rush lasts abit longer than.... Ye)

[Shinryu]

Eh, the blizz-backed EU guild claims more, whoop-dee-fucking-doo. Don't care really except that it shows the clear favoritism towards them.

[Buckwald]

End game raiding is like the sex life in a marriage..... U wanna get it the **** over with so you can get back into the living room and finish off that football match.

Not even close to true.

[sicness]

Only reason we even did it was because several 10-man guilds claimed it to be "overtuned" and "so much more harder than Ragnaros-25, unkillable." Only thing we did was to prove that definitely isn't the case.

I still have no idea why some people are reading into the wipe count at all. It's trivia. If you can read the news post we put out at all, it's pretty clear that the wipe count in no way whatsoever is brought up as anything but a fun fact. Simply because that's what people were already asking and would've been asking constantly.

When comparing it in tier 11 I can understand, as there was plenty of debate then. But as far as tier 12 I haven't recalled anyone making claims that 10 man is obviously harder but of course if I'm wrong by all means correct me. But it's pretty obvious that the majority of the debate was in relation to tier 11 content.

From what I've seen you guys were pretty much the ones to start the whole debate by doing this. Again though if I'm wrong by all means correct me.