Warrior Tank Dying on Majordomo - Need Input

[Deleted]

Hello guys,

After my guild took down Majordomo last week with fairly ease (10 man), we wiped for 2½ hours today. The reason behind this seemed to be our Warrior tank dying.

Last week our MT (Feral Bear) was tanking and our Shaman healer was available. Tonight we lacked dps and the Bear (me) had to go dps and our Warrior tank had to be the MT. We also had our Resto Druid in stead of the Resto Shaman but they're both good at what they're doing, apart from the Resto Druid being new in our roster.

Our HPala was lacking the Mana Tide, but with me as Feral Cat, I could Innervate him and pop my Tranq (2/2 in Nurturing). Our Spriest used his Hymn of Hope as well so we thought it should be cowered.

The thing is that our HPala kept saying that our Prot Warrior took a lot more dmg than I do. Gear wise I'm a bit ahead of the Warrior but tbh gear shouldn't be the issue.

After 2½ hour or so, we pugged a dps and had me go tank. We 2 shotted Majordomo after making a silly mistake. That ofc leads me to think, that there's something wrong. That the Warrior isn't doing it right. He saved all his CD's for the cat phase but I'd like some input, since I don't know a lot about Prot Warriors in Cata.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a9pqjoq0eivzpt9r/

[Beace]

Looking at your logs, this is what I see: First wipe: Death from Leeping Flames, so I assume you messed up the transition and got a void zone in raid. Second wipe: Tank recieved no heal for 6 seconds. Third wipe: Leeping Flames, see first wipe. Fourth wipe: It looks like you had 2 Spirits up here when tank died. This in itself shouldn't be a problem if it was the end of the phase, problem was the tank only had hots rolling the last 4 seconds, no direct heals at all. Fifth wipe: One of your druids is raid healing with Tranq, I'm not sure what your other two healers are doing but none of them are healing the tank at least. That's my take on it anyway, seems to be lack of healing in all tank deaths that weren't wipes due to other errors. Warrior uptime on cooldowns seems appropiate from what I can tell. I've no explanation for why it went better when you took over tanking though. (I've no idea why the post gets formatted like this, it ignores my spaces.)

[Deleted]

I'm still fairly new to reading the WoL but I checked the in-game death log every time. I know we fucked up several times, mainly due to having a new healer and people just being shit today. That said, our Hpala was "cheap" with his heals, cause he was oom'ing too fast. This could be due to us not having our Resto Shaman available (vacation atm).

I know we had 2 spirits up a few times, but that was at the very end of the phase and it wasn't an issue last week with me tanking or when I took over at the end of the raid.

The healers are perhaps a bit more used to me tanking and they have a better feeling of how low they can let me drop, before healing me up. It just doesn't make sense that with the same healer set-up, we wipe for 2½ hour and after swopping tanks we 2 shot him.

I checked the Warrior's armory and stats. I haven't had any reason to do this since we recruited him 6 months ago but from what I can tell, he's not reforging properly. I'll have to read up on EJ myself but him having a huge disparity between Parry and Dodge, could have an impact as well.

You're referring to a druid popping Tranq and none of the other healers healing the tank. I think that was on a Scorpion phase, where the tank died as well. That happened only once I think and I'm pretty sure it was me, who used my Tranq (I was dps). The other healers were probably raid healing and again, that wasn't an issue with me tanking.

I could really use some input from a Prot Warrior tbh.

[Esg]

Warriors take more dmg then druids especially with the amount of dodge druids have. The warrior will have to pop a CD everytime the raid has to stack from cats->scorp since he wont be getting any big heals during that interval. When you where tanking you probably dodged enough hits that it wouldn't matter as people where stacking in, but it's alot easier to notice on warriors/dks that don't pop cooldowns.

[Deleted]

If you're a Prot Warrior yourself or have some more knowledge about them than me, could you pls tell me, what the critically block cap is?

I know that Prot Paladins want to keep Parry and Dodge roughly on par, is this the same for Warriors?

[Beace]

I'm no expert on prot warriors, but his gemming or reforging doesn't seem bad to me. He's focusing on mastery without sacrificing too much stamina, and difference between his parry and dodge is only 1.1%. As for taking more dmg: You took 780k on your 7 minute kill. The warrior took 700-800k on your 7 minute wipes. Now those numbers might not be directly comparable due to one being a kill and one being a whipe, but I really don't think there's any major difference in there.

[Deleted]

You are absolutely right about the gap between Parry and Dodge. I had the Armory on "Advanced" and saw the numbers. I suck at math and didn't realize it was only 1%.

I'm still confused about this tbh. With what you just said, it makes even less sense that the healers lost him so many times. Our Hpala is our main healer and the one who always assign healing etc. I trust him when he says, that the Warrior took more dmg, at least I trust his feeling of the Warrior taking more dmg.

It just doesn't make sense:/

Edit: The gap between his Parry and Dodge was actually higher, when I started the thread. He's been reforging, while I've been posting.

[Beace]

To be fair, he basically only died 3 times. The other 2 were caused by the void zones from Majordomo jumping (unless I'm misreading the logs). Maybe just bad luck or circumstances? I dunno.

[nadrii]

Warriors very often have parry higher than dodge due to their talents (can't view them right now on my phone). You also need to check thunderclap and demo shout up time. He should also be holding cooldowns for when healers are forced to move. For a nomal mode encounter a druid has a lot more wiggle room in terms of effective health and avoidance.

[Deleted]

Hmm I'm missing part of the log. Cause as I said, we wiped for 2½ hour or so. But after the first few attempts with people fucking up, we wiped to the same issue over and over - the tank dying. The healers were saying it already at the beginning, that they felt he took a lot more dmg. So while we had some fuckup's we wiped mostly due to him dying.

[Bartholamew]

Protection warriors take more parry than dodge (20-30% as a value, not percent chance is generally accepted depending on gear) due to our synergy between block and parry via our hold the line talent. A healer knowingly healing a different tank often 'feels' different things that might not necessarily be valid. The numbers don't lie - healers should be coordinating cooldowns together such that they don't fall behind on the tank. The large gaps with absence of any heals on the tank are most alarming. If they're having trouble keeping up with cleaves ask him to aoe last stand.

[dumathoinn]

y did you make the same post twice in two different threads?

[Deleted]

y did you make the same post twice in two different threads?

I didn't actually. If you read them both properly, you would know this. I went to the Warrior forum to ask a specific question about stats and the critically block cap. I went there to get some Prot Warrior input. Here I'm asking for help with the logs more than Prot Warrior stats. So no, I don't believe I've duplicated the thread.

But hey, ty for your oh so sharp eye on the forum rules.......

---------- Post added 2011-07-24 at 11:47 PM ----------

Protection warriors take more parry than dodge (20-30% as a value, not percent chance is generally accepted depending on gear) due to our synergy between block and parry via our hold the line talent. A healer knowingly healing a different tank often 'feels' different things that might not necessarily be valid. The numbers don't lie - healers should be coordinating cooldowns together such that they don't fall behind on the tank. The large gaps with absence of any heals on the tank are most alarming. If they're having trouble keeping up with cleaves ask him to aoe last stand.

I've been going through both the WoL report and the in-game report now, as I've tried to read up on Prot Warriors as well. The gap between healing would indeed be alarming, if the Feral Bear died too. However that wasn't the case and that's what bugs me.

I did notice myself, that on some attempts the healers were slow healing him up but still, that doesn't really explain the big difference in healing our 2 tanks imo.

Eidt: Sorry I came off as a bit rude there, I saw your answer to the Prot Warrior specific question.

Maybe I could have made it more clear when making the posts but as I wrote, I realized that I needed advice on 2 different things.
A. The logs and whether it was a healing issue or a tanking issue
B. I need to know if our tank could have used his CD's properly but messed his stats up.

For me there's a big difference and I realized that I wouldn't get Prot Warrior answers I needed in the general raiding forum.

[dumathoinn]

ahh well sorry if it was directed towards different questions either way its not the prot warriors problem cuz hes really just geared right and the RNG of the bear tank is just getting lucky in the end the Warrior "should" perform better.

[Deleted]

Np, as I said, I could have been a bit more clear.

Without making this thread about the Prot Warrior specific, I don't agree with you. Equally geared and skilled Bear and Prot Warrior should in the end do equally good imo. And I don't think I've been lucky with RNG, seeing that I tanked this fight last week with no issues as well.

That said, I'm beginning to see a pattern of several seconds on non-healing. That leads me to think, that I need to have a chat with our healers - again.

[dumathoinn]

well im not talking talent im talking just purely from a tanking view. Prot War/Pally right now perform better with mitigation/avoidance and DK/Bear have some RNG facotrs less than bear/dk our OT is a bear and he does exceptional specially say on rag. But like a dk there are times where he "might" get hit harder. See what im saying? Right nothing beats a Sword and Board tank. but next to them it would be bear for sure bears are stellar compared to DKs who are just getting wrecked this tier

[Deleted]

Hmm I get what you're saying but I still don't agree totally. I know too well about Bears Savage Defense being on a 3-roll system and the amount of RNG that involves. That said, when a Bear reaches the DR on Dodge, they Dodge a crap load of hits. Right now in half Firelands gear, I reached the DR cap on Dodge, got 47k armor and SD is more or less up all the time.

We have 3 tanks in my guild: Bear, Warrior and Paladin. We're all equally geared and the healers all say that I'm the one taking least dmg. That said, I've been owned by bad RNG several times where it has cost a wipe. Other times I've been really lucky, like when I tanked Chimaeron from 20% to 4%, before I actually died.

[Deleted]

Warriors/paladins are alot different to heal compared to dk's/druids. Atm we're running with 2 dk maintanks (awesome ones just to be clear) and they both have close to 40% avoidance (yea they use the 4% parry weapon enchant). This combination of avoidance and physical damage shields is comparable to what druids have.

Now when we had our warrior tanking (abit less geared but not so much) I also felt that he was taking alot more damage. I got used to queuing up my Divine Light +3 hp word of glory bomb on the dk's whenever they spiked. Warriors constantly take damage but lower amounts of it. Just needs some getting used to.

About dk's getting wrecked. Tbh I prefer dk's over druids. Both tend to have spike damage but dk's can line up a deathstrike to overcome that or a runetap or both with a full rack of cd's for every possible situation. Druids are just spiky but are lovely for switching to kitty (or as kitty taking over tanking on tank-death).

[Deleted]

That said, I'm beginning to see a pattern of several seconds on non-healing. That leads me to think, that I need to have a chat with our healers - again.

I didn't checked the logs, but some guy on the other thread said there is gap between healing, and now you say it too.
Ok your holy pala what is he doing, where is his beacon? its impossible the tank to not receive any heals for 4-6sec's! I mean what your paladin have been doing?

We 3 shotted Majordomo, and we are casual guild, with like 364-366 iLvl on all members including me, the holy paladin.
We use a warrior tank and don't have any issues at all. Just go tell your healers to stop slacking and blaming the tank, because they fail.

[xotrem]

The thing is that our HPala kept saying that our Prot Warrior took a lot more dmg than I do. Gear wise I'm a bit ahead of the Warrior but tbh gear shouldn't be the issue.

Actually, gear should be a major issue. Maybe he doesn't have the mitigation needed to survive. Maybe he is reforging/gemming/enchanting in the wrong area. I haven't gone to the trouble of looking him up on the armory, but gear can always be an issue. Another could be skill, not knowing when to use cooldowns and the like. It could be something so simple as it was the warriors first time tanking the fight and having to figure it out.