Humans put Orcs in Interment camps therefore they're evil and Orcs are good...

[Legionnaire]

Really?

Lets see now..

The Humans were in Azeroth minding their own business, then one day a portal opens up in the Black Morass and a Horde of 1000's blood thirsty creatures pour in.

These strange creatures attack and massacre the first Humans they come across, and it's soon apparent that their sole purpose is to wipe out the Human race, down to every last woman and child.

The Humans fight tooth and nail against these alien monstrous creatures and refuse to get wiped out. They eventually win the war and Orcs are routed and disperse into the countryside, continuing to harass Human civilians, attacking villages here and there.

The Humans capture any Orcs they come across and hold them in camps.

Now, this makes the Humans evil? And the orcs are suddenly victims?

You'd think that it was the Humans that sent their Armies into Draenor with the sole purpose of capturing these peaceful creatures so they can keep them in internment camps in Azeroth..


What kind of warped logic is this?

[WolfyDude]

Orcs are good, just not hellscream

[conscript]

What kind of warped logic is this?

The same logic that makes every side in a conflict think that they are truly the victim. If Humans had invaded Draenor and were imprisoned they would consider themselves victims.

Good and evil is defined by perspective.

[Venziir]

Fact is, that soon after the orcs were placed in the camps, they became lethargic. At the same time, Antonidas and other Arch-mages of Dalaran, came to the conclussion, that the orcs had been corrupted and used as tools of something far more sinister.
Therefor the orcs were nothing but pawns, and couldn't really help it. It's akin to when a criminal is voted "Insane at the moment", and thus avoids further punishment.

... Oh and the orcs of the Old Horde are not the same as the orcs of the New Horde, besides a few exeptions who'd still like to go all Waaaagh.

[Samin]

Really?

Lets see now..

The Humans were in Azeroth minding their own business, then one day a portal opens up in the Black Morass and a Horde of 1000's blood thirsty creatures pour in.

These strange creatures attack and massacre the first Humans they come across, and it's soon apparent that their sole purpose is to wipe out the Human race, down to every last woman and child.

The Humans fight tooth and nail against these alien monstrous creatures and refuse to get wiped out. They eventually win the war and Orcs are routed and disperse into the countryside, continuing to harass Human civilians, attacking villages here and there.

The Humans capture any Orcs they come across and hold them in camps.

Now, this makes the Humans evil? And the orcs are suddenly victims?

You'd think that it was the Humans that sent their Armies into Draenor with the sole purpose of capturing these peaceful creatures so they can keep them in internment camps in Azeroth..


What kind of warped logic is this?

The point is that you can't categorize an entiry race as "good" or "evil. There are evil humans. There are good humans. There are evil orcs. There are good orcs. And then there is always the question: "What is good?" anyway. The way the orcs were threated in some of the camps wasn't really very "good". On the other hand, humans could've killed them but they didn't. Also you can't say orcs are the victims, because they started the war.
Also their imprisonment was an important part of wow lore, because it kept them 100% away from fel energies or demon blood and anything that causes them to stay in their blood craze...which eventually led to their lethargy. Which led to the modern horde that is not controlled by the legion anymore.

[Thorqin]

There is a thread based on this discussion on the front page, did you really need to start another one?

[Legionnaire]

The point is that you can't categorize an entiry race as "good" or "evil. There are evil humans. There are good humans. There are evil orcs. There are good orcs. And then there is always the question: "What is good?" anyway. The way the orcs were threated in some of the camps wasn't really very "good". On the other hand, humans could've killed them but they didn't. Also you can't say orcs are the victims, because they started the war.
Also their imprisonment was an important part of wow lore, because it kept them 100% away from fel energies or demon blood and anything that causes them to stay in their blood craze...which led to their lethargy. Which led to the modern horde that is not controlled by the legion anymore.

I'm not stupid. I'm not saying all Humans are saints..

But all Orcs in Azeroth at that time WERE a part of an invading army that massacred Humans and tried to wipe them out... None were civilians.

I'm just not buying the argument that Humans did an injustice to Orcs by putting them in camps.. What should they have done? Let them wander around and keep harassing farmers, potentially regroup and try to destroy Humans again?

[orcshaman24]

The same logic that makes every side in a conflict think that they are truly the victim. If Humans had invaded Draenor and were imprisoned they would consider themselves victims.

Good and evil is defined by perspective.

This to be honest. Although one could argue that examples of certain acts if a certain character lacks a moral compass on what it right from wrong, otherwise both sides are capable of doing good things, and evil things.
The interment camp argument, well the idea of it seemed the right course, fact was well the orcs held as prisoners were unable to even fight back because of being lethargic, with withdrawal from the condiction they were corrupted into, the humans in those camps created the orcs as the worst kind of scum, it was even reported by one orc in cycle of hatred that his human captors would deficate on him for there amusement.
Whatever they were before being captured, what the humans did to them in those camps isn't any better, and you can't outright dismiss one argument in this in favour of another, there are evils on both sides.

Its if you say 'well they started to war, so eye of an eye its ok then that we caged them and tortured them and pissed on them well they were caught', but in the next context saying 'They have no right to go to war with us for what he did to them well they were caught they deserved it!', that thus makes your argument completely one sided.

In these kind of arguments, posters don't look clearly enough at all evidense, and often refuse to accept half of what there is, only taking what they want to hear to justify there point. It doesn't work like that, and you need to set a counter balance to each argument, otherwise your be pinned as looking one sided and kind of narrow in that opinion.

[Huntaer]

werent they under control by the legion or something?

[Venziir]

I'm not stupid. I'm not saying all Humans are saints..

But all Orcs in Azeroth at that time WERE a part of an invading army that massacred Humans and tried to wipe them out... None were civilians.

I'm just not buying the argument that Humans did an injustice to Orcs by putting them in camps.. What should they have done? Let them wander around and keep harassing farmers, potentially regroup and try to destroy Humans again?

Nitpicking, but that's not true. They brought their children, their mates and peons with them.

[Deleted]

Humans should be paying reperations to Orcs. True story.

[Kaldreno]

If a dog is starved, abused and whipped into a frenzy and it bites someone, it's not the poor dog's fault. It's the owner's. Orcs are more intelligent than dogs but they fell victim to the tainted demon blood and could scarcely control their actions. At least they didn't turn into Scourge like the humans

[trebor]

Just read "Of Blood and Honor", it should explain everything

[MrHappy]

I'm not stupid. I'm not saying all Humans are saints..

But all Orcs in Azeroth at that time WERE a part of an invading army that massacred Humans and tried to wipe them out... None were civilians.

I'm just not buying the argument that Humans did an injustice to Orcs by putting them in camps.. What should they have done? Let them wander around and keep harassing farmers, potentially regroup and try to destroy Humans again?

they were also were not acting on their own free will

[Bunsie]

There's no white or black. Just gray, the orcs were a peaceful race corrupted and used for destruction.
Humans are supposed to be good, yet they wage war on their own kind and others repeatedly.

And I'll throw this bit in here as well, just to show it extends to other races, I'm tired of seeing Orc Vs Human threads.
Blood elves are supposed to be bad, but think about it. They were betrayed by one of their own to the enemy. The scourge (lead by a human prince named Arthas) marched through their lands to their city and destroyed everything in it's path, killed their king and turned everyone that was killed into an undead. With the majority of their race wiped out, and the Alliance having failed them, the turned to the horde for help rebuilding.

It can be said for all races, they all have their faults but you can find good in each.

[Miralynn]

The orcs were led and corrupted by demons of the Legion, and brought through the Dark Portal into Azeroth by a human Guardian who was essentially posessed by the leader of said Legion...

...so what exactly was the rest of the humans' excuse for abusing, starving, and killing orcs who were too lethargic to fight back?

[ukrainium]

People immediately think Horde = bad, Alliance = good strictly based on their faction names. What if they were called the Marshmallows and Tulips? Who'd be the bad guy then?

[Thage]

Fact is, that soon after the orcs were placed in the camps, they became lethargic. At the same time, Antonidas and other Arch-mages of Dalaran, came to the conclussion, that the orcs had been corrupted and used as tools of something far more sinister.
Therefor the orcs were nothing but pawns, and couldn't really help it. It's akin to when a criminal is voted "Insane at the moment", and thus avoids further punishment.

... Oh and the orcs of the Old Horde are not the same as the orcs of the New Horde, besides a few exeptions who'd still like to go all Waaaagh.

In all fairness, the WAAAAAAAGH crowd seems to be the majority again these days.

As for the internment, it was brought up to an alternative to just killing all the captive orcs. When just leaving them free meant they'd continue attacking fringe settlements, and killing them all would make the Alliance just as bad as the Old Horde, the internment camps--where the orcs were, in theory, left mostly unmolested even if the guards in said camps didn't live up to that theory--were the safest bet for the Alliance without just going kill-'em-all.

---------- Post added 2011-07-25 at 09:35 AM ----------

The orcs were led and corrupted by demons of the Legion, and brought through the Dark Portal into Azeroth by a human Guardian who was essentially posessed by the leader of said Legion...

...so what exactly was the rest of the humans' excuse for abusing, starving, and killing orcs who were too lethargic to fight back?

The fact that humans tend to be emotional and irrational, and thus had the perfect opportunity to let out some steam when it comes to the orcs that had brutalized their race for nigh on a decade? It's not exactly the gleaming paragon of virtue people try to make the Second War Alliance out to be, but considering what had been done to the humans by the orcs up until then it's not terribly difficult to see why those guards would be a bit overzealous.

[yaij9841]

Also you can't say orcs are the victims, because they started the war.

As I remember it, it was a Human mage that brought them to Azeroth, not orcs just rushing in.


Edit: anyways it's all the draenei's fault cause they wouldn't die. Yup, if they had just died off or converted long ago in a galaxy far away then orcs wouldn't have been corrupted by the legion. Azeroth would probabbly still get razed for what happened with the well of eternity, but at least no orcs would have been involved.

[Deleted]

Well, one good answer that will help u. Read Rise of The Horde. Then u see why "a Horde of 1000's blood thirsty creatures pour in". Dont judge the orcs, theyre just victims of the demons as many many races before them, check on allys beloved dreanei as an example